Family Ties: Stories That Inspire

[0:03] Natalie Saldarriaga: Alright well, please introduce yourself, tell us your name, and where you’re from.

[0:10] Layla Ahmed: Hi, I’m Layla Ahmed, I guess that’s how you actually say my last name, not Ah-med, but I’m from New Jersey. Um, so yeah.

[0:23] Natalie: And how would you describe your cultural background?

[0:29] Layla: So my family is from Bangladesh. I would say that I am Bengali is the proper term. Um, my family is from… specifically the Sunamganj region um so I guess that’s where the story’s going to mainly take place.

[0:52] Natalie: Alright, so who is the story about and what relation do they have to you?

[0:59] Layla: So, it’s mainly about my maternal grandparents. Also, about my great-grandpa. Um, so my grandparents, I’ve, you know, known them forever obviously. I’m quite close with them, yeah they brought me up. My great-grandpa I never met. He passed away in 96’. I was born in 2001, um so I haven’t met him so his story I guess is told from the perspective of what I heard mainly from my grandparents, um and also from other people as well.

[1:44] Natalie: Alright, so if you’re ready go ahead and tell us the story.

[1:49] Layla: Okay, um where to begin? I suppose it starts in 1971. February specifically, um my grandparents got married then. This was, a month before the 1971 independence war broke out. So, basically they got married and my… they moved into the Koitok Hospital which is basically uh, the hospital grounds. It’s a rural hospital that my grandpa was working at. Kind of managing the operations of it and so it was very remote and it’s customary that like the bride goes to visit her family after she is, you know, settled in . So she went to visit her parents at their home which is quite far. Especially at that time when there wasn’t too many roads and too many cars. So she had gone to see them and that’s when war broke out. Um, so this was very sudden. No one really expected that the war would happen at that exact time. Um, because the structure of it was basically… it was supposed to be a surprise attack that the West Pakistan Army planned out. So, at the time I have to explain, um, East Pakistan is modern day Bangladesh and then West Pakistan is modern day Pakistan. And due to British rule and all that um, Pakistan was… it became a country based off of religion. So then India was India because its Hindu and Pakistan is Pakistan it is Muslim, but because India is geographically between the two, um it was very difficult basically for you know having a country where it’s so far apart and the people are very different as well ethnically and the only language they have in common is English so you can image it’s quite difficult to run a  country that way. So, the West Pakistan Army had basically attacked and war had begun. Roads were destroyed. You could imagine the postal service was not handing out mail at that time so my grandparents were not in contact with each other. They had no idea of knowing if the other person was alive or dead. Um, and what ended up happening was my grandma and her family had to flee. Um, the reason they had to was because her dad, my great-grandpa, was a local chairman but also, he was a former captain in the West Pakistan Army. And so he didn’t know what the army wanted with him. He didn’t know if they wanted him dead or alive or if they wanted him to work for them. And plus because he was so trusted and because he had this good standing with the West Pakistan Army local government officials of East Pakistan sent their wives and children to live with him during the war. Because they wanted them to be safe and they thought they’d be safe with him. So they had to care for all these families as well so they had to flee. Um, so they went down the river. The Surma River, um and what ended up happening was they stayed with distant family members. They, the family, like split up. So they were all in different places and um, so they were living very rural areas where there was no, you know, water or electricity. It was very, very much in the uh, country and so what ended up happening was the wives and children they… it was not a standard of living that they were used to and it was quite difficult to stay there  so they ended up leaving. They fled to India which is where a lot of refugees of the war went. Um, and also many Hindus cause they were targeted by the West Pakistan Army because not only was it a war, but it was also an ethnic cleansing. Um, so many people had to flee. Um, there was also training camps there for the Freedom Fighters in India. And so, and at their camps they had an outbreak of cholera I believe and so my grandpa back in Koitok Hospital was secretly sending supplies and saline to them to the Freedom Fighters behind the backs of the West Pakistan Army who had made his hospital a camp for themselves and because my grandpa was running the hospital at the time he had to play nice with them and, treat them, and dine with them, and mainly because he wanted to keep the hospital running but also because it gave him some standing with them. So he had some goodwill and he kind of used that to his advantage. So, with my grandpa what happened was um… so not only would he treat  them and then also treat the Freedom Fighters, so he was kind of treating both sides um, but also there were so… Razakars is kind of the term used for traitors but it’s at the time it was kind of these fundamentalists. It was a militia that the West Pakistan Army had used to um, kind of to get these Razakars to kind of find Hindus and Freedom Fighters for them. So they would find these people and they would kill them. Um, and my grandpa found… so if he saw someone harming someone, if he saw these Razakars trying to beat someone or murder someone then he would, you know, use his standing with the West Pakistan Army and say “Look if you kill them then I’ll tell the army that you’re a traitor and that you’re the one that they should kill instead.” And he was like, “Who are they going to believe? Me the doctor who’s treating them or you someone who is low on their payroll?” basically. Um, so that was what he did and there’s this story of this one Hindu man who actually owned the land that the hospital was on. So he donated the land to the government and also, I should mention it’s normal doctors to live on the hospital grounds especially at that time because healthcare was a public thing. So, he was living at the hospital grounds with the Pakistan Army basically. Um, and so he was there… he was there during all of this and he witnessed many things. And so they were trying to kill the Hindu man, the owner of or the land owner that the hospital was on because he was Hindu. There was no other reason. And he was, you know, a wealthy guy who just had high status and my grandpa who is this young guy. This young doctor who’s like, “No you can’t kill him,” and the Army was like, “Why not?” And he was like, “Oh because he’s Muslim.” And, my grandpa kind of like passed him off as Muslim and got the guy to rehearse the shahada which is the Muslim declaration of faith which the Army used kind of as a marker to see who was Muslim and who was not. Um, and so because they didn’t understand Bangla which is what my grandpa was speaking to the man, they were kind of able to pass this off cause the Army spoke Urdu mainly. So, that’s just one of the many stories, but anyways back to my grandma who is far away. So, her story was… so her and her dad were… they were you know in hiding still and the West Pakistan Army was saying that they were going to check down the river so they were all scared. They were like, “Oh no, they’re going to find us,” but then they, they never did end up checking there, but then sent word that they had summoned my great-grandpa otherwise when they did find him they were going to kill him basically. So he was forced to go and he was summoned by the Army. The Army had created this uh, Peace Committee which is a funny name because [laughs] they were not very peaceful. But, they had made the local school, elementary school, their base and um, they had a mass grave there where they kept the bodies of Freedom Fighters, families of Freedom Fighters. They burned their houses, the families homes or anyone who was supportive of independence. Hindus, women that they had raped, academics, intellectuals, basically. So, they, you know, had all these people they were after. Students too, especially radical students. And so they had this uh mass grave that my [great] grandpa passed by everyday. Or everytime he was summoned to the camp. So, they had gone back home at this point their family and the base was quite close to their home. Um, and so he was on the Peace Committee so officially what he told his kids, cause my great-grandpa did not talk about the war when he was alive.

[12:57] Natalie: Hm.

[12:58] Layla: So, at the time. So the reason he had to go back also was because he was the local chairman. So he couldn’t flee for too long. So, his official job was to kind of tell the local people and the local business men and business owners, and business women to kind of continue on as usual to the farms, and the fisheries. Cause fishing is a big business there. Um, big industry so they would all continue on because the Army didn’t want there to be too much chaos. They kind of needed things to operate for themselves as well. Um, and so that was his job, was to basically to calm people down. To calm everything. Um, but also the Army did check in with him to kind of see.. okay is this person… because they had like this list basically. And, they’re whole… what they used to report primarily was okay is this person a Freedom Fighter? Um, or are they pro-independence? Is this person a family member of a Freedom Fighter? Is this  person a Hindu? So that’s what they used him for. Um, and so he was notorious for stopping any killings that he could. So he would go, “No, no, no they’re not a Freedom Fighter, they’re not Hindu.” There is many stories… so he was kind of known as like an Angel of Death cause he would be there right when they were about murder them and that’s when he’d be like “No, no, no they are not a Hindu, they’re not a Freedom Fighter. Don’t kill them.” So he would, he was kind of there last minute doing what he could. Um, but obviously he couldn’t save everyone so that’s the part that you know is sad and that we don’t really talk about too much is the fact that he kind of you know, had to witness many people die. But, no he’s notorious till this day for not allowing the town to burn, because they would burn down any homes, any villages of people who were Mukti Bahini which is the term for Freedom Fighters. So, he’s kind of infamous for that and even in the Bengali diaspora in the U.S. any like if his name is mentioned people start crying just at the sound of his name because he saved many lives and many homes but um, yeah no and he was well known for that, but then unfortunately when the war ended and the Bangladesh government took over because he was technically working with the West Pakistan Army, and because he was on the Peace Committee he was known as a traitor. So he had to go into hiding for six months and they thought he was a traitor. And then people came forward and testified on his behalf. Local people and they kind of cleared his name. And so yeah and so he was able to come out of hiding. A big part of the story that I did not mention was that there’s two political parties at the time and there still are. The Awami League which was pro-revolution and the Muslim League, which was like behind closed doors they were pro-independece but publicly they were quiet on the matter. Um, so my great-grandpa thankfully he was Muslim League and not Awami League because anyone who was Awami League were murdered on site. And, um, so because he was Muslim League he was able to kind of um, work within the West Pakistan Army and um, kind of save people that way, but yeah no, if he… because he was this politician for the Muslim League, um that kind of worked in his favor. Um, very much so because he was… he took flack his entire life for after the war, for not being Awami League and people you know would question his loyalties because of his political party affiliation. So it’s a very interesting dynamic there. But um, yeah no so that was um, the war basically and um, after that ended my grandparents moved to the capital to Dhaka to kind of establish themselves there. Um, try to find work, but the thing is you know after such a huge war, um, although they did achieve independence the cost was grave. I mean, infrastructure was destroyed completely. Standard of living was, had gone down for many people young professionals they were looking to make to start their lives for themselves and it was kind of difficult to do. And so a few years later my grandparents decided to migrate to, um, Lagos actually is where they first landed in Nigeria, but the reason they had wanted to move was because they wanted to kind of collect money and earn savings elsewhere in an oil rich country where the value of their money was way higher. Because Bangladesh at the time was trying to establish itself um, and if you know their value of their equivalent of the dollar was quite low at the time. So, it made sense for them to kind of work outside and then save up and then go back home basically. So they wanted to… the plan was to always go back. Um, so then they you know had great times in Lagos, in Ibiade and Ogún. They lived all over. At first they were quite scared and um, because they had never left the country before they had never ventured out it was very new to them. No, and they ended up staying for many years. Raised their kids there. And they talk about how, you know, they benefited from their higher social status there because unfortunately at the time it was quite racist. The culture and so, my grandparents were called oyinbo which meant that they kind of equated them with European foreigners, with the Dutch and stuff. So they kind of benefited from the racist hierarchy there because they did have um, also a status as being a doctor and doctor’s family there. Um, especially in the countryside areas where um, my grandpa had to do like… cause his speciality is surgery but he kind of had to do everything from like OB-GYN to like childcare, so he kind of did all of it over there. And so they were experiencing quite a high social status there compared to Bangladesh where they were just nobodies really. Um, and so yeah and I think Nigeria, their time there was good. That was the time of the Royal Dutch Shell Oil Company and so um, NIgeria was prosperous you could say at the time. Um, because they did have lots of income from the oil industry and so things were happy, things were good. Um, but then you know, Nigeria there was a decline because obviously the development and the money from the oil industry was not really going to the locals and so the country was kind of experiencing hardship in that sense. And so my grandparents, it was anyways temporary they wanted to stay there so they wanted to leave. They tried going to Dublin to pursue higher education there. They got there and then what ended up happening was the laws had changed basically and they weren’t accepting my grandpa’s degree because he got his degree from Sylhet which is not… cause they only accepted the one from Dhaka from the capital. So, they moved their entire lives over to Dublin and only to be turned down basically. So, then they went back to Nigeria. They were quite sad, like what are they going to do now? And then, they were having their third kid, my uncle, in 1985 and so they decided to go to London at that point. They were like, “You know we’re going to move to England, we’re going to live here. Pursue higher education there.” They got there and again the laws had changed. So the British Nationality Act basically only allowed for, so like I think in the U.S. if you’re born here then you’re automatically, you automatically get your citizenship but over there it’s not the same. So they changed it right before they went and so you had to have like two parents who were like green card holders at least or had their residency in order… It was a big mess. So, they couldn’t move there permanently plus London at the time was, it was quite racist. The society there, even though they were living with family friends and they were happy, it’s quite segregated there. Um, at the time at least it was. And, so they went back. My grandpa was working in Nigeria again and my grandma took the kids to Dhaka and put them in an English speaking school because they wanted to move to America because my grandma’s sister was here. She had been here since 1975. Um, and so they even though their goal was to go back to Bangladesh at that point my grandma’s entire family was here. Um, and I asked my grandpa before I was like “You know, how come you, you had all these goals of going back to Bangladesh and being working in academia why didn’t that happen?” And he was like, “You know, happy wife, happy life.” He’s like “You know her entire family was over here,” and family is kind of like everything and over there they can kind of raise their families together. Kind of like the village mentality and I think in a way they brought that over here because they, my grandma and her siblings all live within like five minutes of each other and they all raise their kids over here and so it all just kind of worked out. So, they came over here and um, they settled in Paterson. And, my grandpa was staying at home with my uncle at the time and the kids and my grandma was working at the same electronics factory as her sister, the one who brought her over and they said they were happy. And she was taking classes, English classes at night and working during the day and it was hard, but they were glad that they came over at the end. They said the… in Bangladesh they don’t know what their lives would have been like. But over here they kind of at least they had each other. So, they were happy that they were here and they were kind of focused their kids’ education and yeah. And then they were raising my uncle and then I came along and they were raising me. And yeah, that’s kind of my grandparents… oh, I should mention my grandma did have a small business in the 90’s. Unfortunately that burned down and she never reopened it. And I asked my grandparents I was like, “Why didn’t you guys, you know, ever finish out with your dreams and your aspirations. You guys had all these goals of having your business and being a doctor and all this?” And they said “No, we had to take care of our kids and our grandkids. Like, sure we could of pursued our educations and our dreams, but your dreams are more important than ours.” So, that was interesting for me cause I never kind of realized how many sacrifices they made.

[28:26] Natalie: Well, wow. What a wonderful story! Thank you so much for sharing.

[28:29] Layla: Yeah. [laughs]

[28:31] Natalie: Incredible.

[28:31] Layla: I know. I know.

[28:33] Natalie: I have some questions about some things you mentioned when they were still in Bangladesh. First… Where should I start? I was like jotting down notes. First, I’m wondering how did your grandfather feel at the hospital? You know, he’s away from his wife, he’s having to lie, and make friends with people who would probably kill him…

[28:54] Layla: Yeah.

[28:55] Natalie: Did he fear for his life? Like what was that like for him?

[28:58] Layla: Many times. Many, many times. Um, he told me that he couldn’t leave the hospital cause if he left they would have killed him cause they would have suspected him of, you know, cooperating or aiding the Freedom Fighters because he was a young man after all. So, they could’ve suspected him of being a Freedom Fighter himself and they needed someone to run the hospital for them. I asked him how he felt about treating the West Pakistan Army. The people who were comitting genocide against his people and he said, “You know for my profession patients are patients. So despite how I felt about them I still had to treat them.” Um, I guess that’s just the Hippocratic Oath. I don’t know, but I think that’s an interesting moral conversation to have. Um, yeah very very interesting but um, no he had no… he didn’t have any reservations about treating them. He did say…. I’m trying to remember cause the interview I did in October with him and this is when I asked him about this, about the army and how he felt about independence. He was like, “No, me treating them didn’t affect my views on how I was pro-independence. Of course I very much wanted Bangladesh to become its own nation but I still had to treat my patients.” So that was his take on it.

[30:45] Natalie: Okay. Goodness I can’t imagine the stress of everything. Like having to do his profession, and having to be professional, but then also having to lie and then being separated from his family. How much stress that must have caused him.

[30:59] Layla: Oh yeah no cause then they were reunited I think before the war ended, like during the war still. He heard from people where my grandma was so then he went to go get her and then she went back to the hospital grounds. And actually when the end of the war came they were on the hospital grounds. They were living, you know, with the Pakistan Army basically. And there is this infamous story of the night that the war ended and the West Pakistan Army was going to retreat. So they were like blowing up bridges behind them and everything and my grandpa was trying to wake my grandma up and was like, “C’mon, like lets go. We have to hide like. What if in their anger, cause they don’t know how they are going to react to losing the war… what if in their anger they come and find us and like murder us like before they leave?” Cause they can do that. No one’s going to stop them. And he was trying to wake her up and there was like… so loud there were bombs going off left and right and she was still asleep. And he couldn’t wake her up and then they were saying it was good that she didn’t wake up cause if she did then we would have been running around on the hospital grounds and they could have like found us and killed us. We were safer in our room

[32:25] Natalie: Wow.

[32:25] Layla: I guess.. But um, yeah many stories like that one.

[32:31] Natalie: And um, I feel like this next question kind of blends into the one I was gonna ask anyway so I think I’ll ask the one that I usually ask which is what was your initial reaction to hearing this story?

[32:46] Layla: That’s a good question. Growing up I heard this story in parts, like the little details here and there whenever they were in the mood and I was always like, “Oh they’re probably exaggerating,” because my grandparents definitely have a penchant for exaggerating stories and I just thought that this was one of them as a kid. Um, but it wasn’t until I was seventeen that I interviewed them for a high school class that I was taking. I think it was called Holocaust Crimes Against Humanity. Like the class title was long but it was about crimes against humanity so I decided for the research project to interview my grandparents. That’s when I heard like the entire story. Or as much as they were, as they wanted to share with me and that’s when I was like, “woah this was actually serious.”  Like I didn’t realize the involvement that my grandparents had in the war. I just thought they were just kept to their homes and were kind of not involved. So I think I was shocked more so when I first heard the full story and I was thinking wow they’re very brave and resilient for kind of not just how they acted, but also their attitude towards the war is very much so like yeah it happened but look at everything else that we’ve done. So they didn’t view themselves as the victims of the war, so yeah. I think I had many feelings. My initial reaction I think  was all over the place cause I think it’s quite a story to hear.

[34:43] Natalie: Yeah, and the question that popped into my head was now knowing that you’ve heard a few of those stories before hearing the whole story. Um, did you know that your great-grandfather was such an important person in his community and now in history?

[34:59] Layla: Yeah. Oh, yeah [laughs]. So, my grandma and her siblings loved to talk about their dad. Like I guess he is very important to them. Even in America within the diaspora when he was alive he was known for being involved in American politics as well. So he was on the campaigns for people like Bill Pascrell, the congressman and former Paterson mayor. Senator Frank Lautenberg. People like that so he was my great-grandpa and was very much involved in American politics too. And, my grandparents and her siblings loved to talk about it whenever they can so I definitely knew about him. I knew more about him cause I think it’s easier to talk about other people’s experiences in war. In wartime than your own so I think that’s why my grandparents talked more about his experiences than their own. Um, and so I always knew more about his story than theirs.

[36:08] Natalie: And what was your great-grandfather’s name?

[36:11] Layla: Wadud Pathan.           

[36:13] Natalie: Okay.

[36:13] Layla: Yeah. His real last name was Raqib. That’s a whole other story…

[36:18] Natalie: Okay.

[36:18] Layla: …his last name.

[36:19] Natalie: And did he ever immigrate or migrate after your parents left?

[36:27] Layla: Uh, he… I think he migrated before my grandparents cause his daughter… he married his daughter off to an American citizen because he eventually wanted the family to move to the U.S. He loved all things America. He was an English major in college, my great-grandpa. Um, so he always had the ambition to move here. That was always what he wanted to do and I think especially after the war. Um, the way that things were, it just made sense for the family, so he moved… I think he was back and forth. I think he permanently came here in 91’ with his wife Lily. Um, but they were very much back and forth between Bangladesh and the U.S. He’s buried in Bangladesh, but yeah he was here I think since the 80’s.

[37:30] Natalie: Okay.

[37:30] Layla: Early 80’s, yeah.

[37:31] Natalie: I see, I see. And, as you tell the story you like give a lot of factual information and like a lot of names and things like that. I’m wondering  is this information that’s easily found? Or is this thanks to your grandparents and your family that you know all this like factual things that also are an important part of the story?

[37:53] Layla: For sure, yeah. So, I think Bangladesh history is something that is, um… because it’s new, it’s like the country’s only been here for like fifty years. So it’s not very difficult to get information from my family about [the] country’s origins, things like that. Um, but also, I did do a research project about it when I was in my senior year of high school. So, I think that’s where a lot of my more… that’s where the hard facts come in where I guess kind of um, lean on for my understanding of it. Cause as much as my family kind of helps with all the names and everything it’s also nice to kind of… cause you know memory is interesting to work with, um, especially with like places and locations. It’s kind of hard to pinpoint exactly the place that they mean. That they’re speaking about um, and so yeah it’s definitely nice to kind of rely on my like the research aspect of it too.

[39:08] Natalie: In what ways has this story affected you personally in your own life?

[39:16] Layla: Hm. That’s a good question. Um, I think it’s explained my upbringing a lot because I mean, and I think it also explains my grandparents and why I guess they are the way they are sometimes and I think especially with like understanding how they brought me up in a post-9/11 society coming from you know surviving war and ethnic cleansing. Um, based off of religion cause that was based you know, ethnic cleansing so I think it’s interesting to kind of understand their mentality. And being like, “Oh okay that’s why they were so adamant of that or that’s why they were so scared of this.” So I think it’s just helped me kind of understand them and you know, kind of understand I guess it’s kind of taboo to talk about, but generational trauma if you will. So it’s kind of like why did you instill this fear in me? Things like that, so yeah.

[40:26] Natalie: Uh, do you think family histories are important, why or why not?

[40:32] Layla: Oh absolutely. I mean. There’s so many things that you can learn. I think it’s not just something that makes us feel good or you know is important in that aspect. Cause I think for my grandparents and um, her siblings, for them family history means legacy, you know, that sort of things which I think is great, but I think for me family history is important in the sense that not only is it something to be proud, but it’s something where I can understand my family members more and humanize them and relate to them and learn about them and who they are as people. And not compare myself to them but kind of, yeah relate to them more. So I think that’s why for me family history is important because it brings this new found appreciation for not just your roots, but I guess sacrifice, the sacrifices made by the people you love, so yeah.

[41:48] Natalie: And you’ve mentioned before that you’ve interviewed your grandparents when you were in high school and then you recently interviewed them back in October, so how was that experience different for you?

[42:00] Layla: Yeah, so in high school it was like off the record, it was just talking to them. Just trying to get information. Like, they knew that their voices and stuff like [that], it wasn’t going to be recorded or used for my project. I was just going to be looking for information. Whereas in October they knew they were on camera. They knew they were being recorded so obviously it’s going to be a whole different dynamic. Um, they were definitely more closed off in the interview in October. Whereas in high school when I was  interviewing them they told me way more then. So the story I told you today was mostly details from what they told me back in high school. So things that were off the record. Um, but I think that’s just also because it’s difficult talking about trauma and war and migration and things like that so I don’t blame them for being closed off. Especially cause some things are personal. Um, and some things they just don’t want on the record I guess, so I understand.

[43:26] Natalie: Do you think it’s more of like a cultural upbringing like it’s not usual to share so much about yourself or is it more of like a perspective. How you mentioned before, they really didn’t see themselves as victims. Maybe they just don’t feel like talking about that part of their life?

[43:41] Layla: Yeah, that’s a very good question. Um, so comunially especially with Bangladesh history, um, you’re supposed to talk about the war and bring up memories about it. Like you’re suppos[ed]…It’s very much applauded to do that. Um, because the people who passed away during the war are viewed as martyrs and so to talk about them, to bring up memories, talk about your own experiences is viewed as contributing to the national archive of history as well. But also, it’s viewed as respectable, like it’s very much a noble thing to do to talk. So comunially it’s very much applauded but individually I’ve noticed that people don’t like talking about traumatic situations obviously. Um, so it’s interesting cause culturally it’s very much applauded to talk about these memories but individually I think it’s more difficult. And I think it’s generational too.Um like my great-grandpa was infamous for never talking about the war. Maybe it’s because his experiences were much worse, but my grandparents do talk about it here and there. Which maybe it’s generational, who knows. But they do open up a bit at times but definitely not as much as I would hope.

[45:07] Natalie: And, um, they’ve gone back to Bangladesh?

[45:12] Layla: Yeah, they vis[isted]… the last time they went back was… when I was nine. So that was twelve years ago…

[45:23] Natalie: Okay!

[45:23] Layla: …the last time they went back. I think that was to sell like the last of their properties and stuff.

[45:27] Natalie: I see.

[45:29] Layla: Yeah, so they kind of, kind of severed ties. I mean right now my grandparents are building a… my grandpa is building a college there he’s trying to… with whatever land he has left. So he’s I think hes like giving it to the government I think to build a college or something.

[45:50] Natalie: Oh…

[45:52] Layla: So, but he’s not there he’s doing it all from America [laughs]

[45:57] Natalie: Okay.

[45:57] Layla: So yeah.

[45:59] Natalie: Do you think it’s difficult for them to go back?

[46:03] Layla: For sure. Oh yeah it has to be difficult for them to go back. Um, they’ve only come back like a handful of times since they immigrated here in 87’. Um, and it seems like they know that they’re cutting off ties to Bangladesh and their ancestral land. Well actually my grandpa’s family is a migrant family so they migrated to Sylhet from a different state but it was, it’s seems like it’s nothing for us, but over there at the time it was a big deal to migrate and they were not accepted over there and so it was very difficult to do. Um, but my grandma’s her land like she gave up it’s all sold. My grandpa whatever he has left he’s you know, not keeping for himself and so I feel like for them it’s most definitely is difficult. And I’ve talked to them about it and they’ve said, “But the Bangladesh now is not the Bangladesh that we know.” Like for them the culture’s changing, um, they always say, you know “The environment, the food, like the trees, it’s all so much different than what they were raised with.” So, for them they feel like everything is being developed, everything it’s not the same, um, like paradise that they knew. And so for them they’re making peace with kind of separating, and yeah, being here permanently.

[47:51] Natalie: Uh, have you ever been? Or would you like to go?

[47:55] Layla: I went once when I was five years old and I was like… I got like deathly sick there. I had pneumonia, I was in the hospital so I do not have the best memories attached, but I did have some good times there and I got to meet some of my family. I got to see one of the houses that my mom grew up in with my grandparents for a short time that they lived in before they went to Nigeria. Um, so yeah I got to see many things and it was great. Um, we were in Dhaka in the capital so not where my family’s from. So, not where like where they all were raised and everything. I would love to see that. I would love to see where they’re from and is this the place everyone talks about. You know, and I think my great-grandpa’s house is still there. It’s… my grandma is like, “No if you put it in Google Maps it’s called the chairman’s house. I promise you that’s just the name of the address,” or whatnot. And she was like, “It’s that well known.” So, I would love to see the well-known place that everyone talks about hopefully so maybe someday I’ll be able to.

[49:19] Natalie: In what ways do you or don’t you see yourself reflected in history?

[49:27] Layla: Hm. I think history is a very flexible term. I think that, um, maybe in the sense of like high school textbook history, I definitely do not see myself represented as much. Um, yeah, I think that’s one place where it’s kind of centered on, I guess the winners of history if you will. Or the traditional winner of history in like textbooks and well known museums and such I think that’s what they focus on. But, I think his[tory] we can find history everywhere and I think for example in like my grandparents history, um, I acknowledge that and I see, I feel represented there. Even though it’s not my story, it’s not my personal history, but I think that family history is one place we can feel represented. Um, and yeah and I think that history is broadening itself and I think that public history is expanding and it makes it um, more accessible for people to have representation for themselves so, I definitely think that, you know, the traditional sense of history is not the best, um, but we are thankfully expanding history, so there you go.

[51:16] Natalie: Uh, that kind of goes with my next question, do you think people are becoming more aware of their culture and their history or more interested?

[51:25] Layla: Hm, that’s a good que[stion]… I think maybe with like the phenomenon of like the DNA testing kits and everything, people are more interested. And I think people who maybe can’t trace back their family trees, so many generations are um, are more interested in what they can find. And so in that sense, you know, because we see like everyone doing like Ancestry and all this, that we’re like, “Let’s look into our family tree and see what we can find based off of what we have,” um, so I think yeah, I think because of that phenomenon going on people are more interested in their personal cultures and histories. And I think that’s great. I mean, I know people are like doing more oral history and interviewing their family members more and you know, looking through old photo albums and just doing what they can, so yeah.

[52:31] Natalie: Is there a part of your culture or your history that you’d like to know more about?

[52:39] Layla: Hm. I think um, something that’s very taboo that I’ve noticed recently is kind of like Islamic mysticism. So where we’re from um, in Bangadesh there’s this kind of like unofficaly saint that kind of like brought um, Islam over to the area and kind of converted everyone back in like the 1300’s. And his name was Shah Jalal  and so when I’m in Paterson where my grandparents live, I’ve noticed that like brands that we get from like the local shop and stuff, cause it’s Little Bangladesh there basically, is named like Shah Jalal and like accounting businesses are named Shah Jalal and it’s very interesting that I’ve asked my grandparents about this and they were like, “We don’t like that,” cause like some people view him as like a saint and it’s um, in Islam it’s like saints aren’t supposed to be associated with God because of like idolatry and such. Um, but I’ve noticed it’s like a quiet symbol within the culture, um, and so I would love to look more into that and kind of see why that is the way it is and like it’s there but it’s not talked about, like everyone knows that um, he’s like a well known saint but um, no one really talks about it cause it’s viewed as disrespectful or taboo, or whatnot, so I’d love to look more into that.

[54:25] Natalie: Okay, well I think those are all the questions I have for you today, is there anything you want to add in regards to your family story or anything else?

[54:36] Layla: Um, I think I added everything. I think my grandparents would be happy with what I’ve said [laughs]. I mentioned all the things about them so they’ll be happy. Yeah.

[54:49] Natalie: Alright, well thank you again so much. What a wonderful story I learned so much and wow you come from like really strong, bad-ass people [laughs].

[55:01] Layla: Let’s see if I can live up to it. We’ll see [laughs]

[55:05] Natalie: Of course [laughs]. Alright well thank you again.

[55:09] Layla: Thanks Natalie.