Family Ties: Stories That Inspire

[0:07] Layla Ahmed: Hello. I am here with Shirin Talukder in Paterson, New Jersey. My name is Layla Ahmed, and the date is October 17th, 2021. So Nanu [Grandma], if you could introduce who you are, say what year you were born in, things like that. 

[0:33] Shirin Talukder: My—okay I will speak in Bangla. My name is Shirin Talukder. I am the grandma of Layla Ahmed and I was born in Bangladesh—in Sunamganj, Sylhet. At the time, Sylhet was the district. So I was born in Sylhet. 

[1:00] Layla: In the town?

[1:01] Shirin: In the town. And my father was in the army. He was a captain. So I’m his daughter. 

[1:09] Layla: Okay. And so what year was your birthday?

[1:14] Shirin: 1954. 

[1:16] Layla: Okay. Okay, so if you could tell me about your childhood, about your life before you got married. 

[1:27] Shirin: Oh, when I was born, my father was at the time doing a government job, a government job. Then, one year after I was born, no six years after my birth, after my paternal grandfather’s death, then my father’s job—he was the eldest son, so he couldn’t work anymore, his younger brothers and sisters were there, that’s why he didn’t work anymore. We were living in Sylhet then. My father started a business and he took care of his family. Then, my maternal grandfather was a lawyer, so he was given a government job, Planned Commissioner in West Pakistan, back then it was East Pakistan, West Pakistan. So when my grandfather left for Rawalpindi, West Pakistan, we were living in Sylhet so from there, my father would leave for business to Dhaka [the capital]. He would go to Dhaka and bring us there from Sunamganj. My paternal grandparents were not alive at the time, they had died by then. So when Father would do business, we were in Dhaka. Three years. And then my father again came back to Sunamganj, and there my paternal uncles all said that in regards to being the oldest, my father should come back to take care of the family. To Sunamganj. So when he came back to Sunamganj—my father’s village is Sunamganj [also name of the district]. So when he came back to Sunamganj, then everyone told him to stand in the election. So Father stood in the election and won, chairman election. After that, he won three times until Bangladesh came into being. Then Father settled there. We studied in Sunamganj. From there, I passed the SSC [Secondary School Certificate] and then I married your grandfather so after I got married, I left with my husband to the rural center where he was working at the time, my husband, so that’s where I lived with my husband. One month later, Bangladesh’s—it wasn’t Bangladesh then—to separate East Pakistan, West Pakistan, they fought a war. So after fighting the war, Pakistan held Sheikh Mujibur [East Pakistan’s leading politician] hostage. Now the—not now, meaning our kind’s first, first President, Sheikh Mujibur, he was taken by Pakistan as a hostage. And here the war kept going. Then nine months later, the nation was born. I was married in February and in March the war began. Then Bangladesh became independent nine months later. 

[5:35] Layla: So what happened during the war in your life like how did it affect you?

[5:42] Shirin: I—when the war began, when all the Pakistani soldiers were coming, they were breaking everything, I mean bridges, so that the Army can’t come, so that they can’t come in, so Sunamganj, Sylhet, so they couldn’t enter those places, that’s why the Mukti Bahini, meaning the Bangladeshi soldiers, they broke everything. 

[6:17] Layla: Freedom Fighters, yeah. 

[6:18] Shirin: Yes. So even after that, they came. Their mood was very bad, of the Pakistanis. Then, they were killing people, good, good people. And the Mukti Bahini, the soldiers, some were in India and some were fighting for the nation. At this time, I was at my father’s house. So suddenly in the night, all the officers’ wives, Sunamganj’s officers, all the government officers’ wives, they all came to our house. And the government officers had to stay, if they came and saw that they weren’t working, they would all be killed by the Pakistanis, the Pakistani soldiers. That’s why they stayed at the government quarters and ran the office. Meanwhile, the wives, their wives, their kids, were all at our house. 

[7:16] Layla: At your dad’s house?

[7:17] Shirin: Yes, at my dad’s house. 

[7:19] Layla: Okay.

[7:20] Shirin: And then from there, the next day we had to turn around and travel to a more rural area so we went to the other side of the river so the Pakistani soldiers wouldn’t find us. 

[7:38] Layla: Okay. So why did you go? So you left your husband—

[7:44] Shirin: No, I left with my father. Your grandfather, meaning my husband, was then at the Koithok Health Center. He also had to stay there otherwise if the soldiers came and saw that there was no doctor at the hospital, then they would track him down and kill him. That’s why he had to stay there, my husband. Then, I along with my father, my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, the officers’ wives who came to our house, with them we went to a rural area. 

[8:29] Layla: Yeah, so why did you have to leave—

[8:34] Shirin: From Sunamganj town, 2-3 miles further. On the other side of the river. So the opposite side. The other side. So the soldiers wouldn’t go there, there was no chance of them going there. So we went to that area. Then, from there, my husband came one month later and brought me back. Then the soldiers didn’t come. They said they would come but they never went there. And out of fear, everyone left early. 

[9:11] Layla: Oh okay. So why did you have to go with your parents? Did you want to because you missed them? Or were you stuck with them?

[9:24] Shirin: I was then with them at the time, then he took me back. After that, a few days later, the officers’ wives also went back. Some went to India, I mean they all walked back. Like that. 

[9:47] Layla: So you were stuck with them when that happened.

[9:49] Shirin: Yeah. 

[9:50] Layla: Okay.

[9:51] Shirin: Then my husband came and took me with him to his place. 

[9:55] Layla: Yeah, but that was one month where you didn’t see him? And you couldn’t write to him?

[10:00] Shirin: At that time, there was no way to communicate. Everyone out of fear for their lives hid where they could. 

[10:09] Layla: So he didn’t know what happened to you?

[10:13] Shirin: No, no. Later on, he found out where I was, he heard from others, and then he went and got me. 

[10:23] Layla: So after that event, what happened? You went back to the hospital grounds?

[10:30] Shirin: Yeah.

[10:31] Layla: And you lived there for how long?

[10:34] Shirin: I lived there for a few months and then again the soldiers, the Pakistani soldiers came, they were coming, everyone was fearing their return, they went straight for—that was Sunamganj town, a subdivision, in the subdivision, that’s where they went, the Pakistanis. After they went, they told Father that where you are—Father was a politician—they said to go with them. If you don’t, there’ll be problems. So he left and they told him he had to help them. So Father out of fear, what was he going to do? He helped them. They created the Shanti Bahini, no the Shanti Committee. What’s it called?

[11:34] Layla: The Peace Committee?

[11:37] Shirin: They made something like that. In it, all the bad people, the ones who don’t like the Awami League [the pro-independence political party], those types of people entered. All the Hindus, the ones who did Awami League, they gave their names to the Pakistanis. They made a camp where they bring people to it and then kill them. 

[12:14] Layla: A mass graveyard. 

[12:16] Shirin: Yeah. That’s where they killed them. Hindus, those who did Awami League. From the village, they went far and brought them and then. So after my father, they heard my father was a leader in the area, and they summoned him from where we were hiding, so he went and then one other person was there, Anwar Raja, Father’s friend, they were together. A long time ago, they did politics with Sheikh Mujibur, I even have a picture. Father, Sheikh Mujibur, Anwar Raja. So Father went and said the Pakistanis were killing his area’s people, and then for Father they made a committee. They said we’ll help you, we’ll tell you the truth.

[13:17] Layla: What was the name of the committee? 

[13:19] Shirin: Shanti Committee.

[13:21] Layla: The one that he made?

[13:22] Shirin: Yeah. 

[13:23] Layla: Okay. 

[13:25] Shirin: After making the Shanti Committee, they caught people and brought them, those devils, what’s it called? Another name, Shanti something, not Shanti. Something else of the Mukti Bahinis. So they would catch people and bring them and summon my father, “you come and tell us if they’re genuine or not.” So Father knows these types of people. They think highly of Father. Father would say, “No they’re good people. They’re good people, let them go.” Many Hindus also came to our house. Gora, a healing man of smallpox, when there was lots of sickness, he would go all over the town, the village, to see all patients. They even caught that man and brought him and absolutely wanted to kill him. Then Father said, “No, he’s Muslim. He’s Muslim, don’t kill him.” So Father saved that—Hindu houses and villages in other places, they burned many Hindu houses and villages. But our area, all the Hindu houses and villages, my Father saved all of them. Then many people, they were right about to gun them down, it was at that exact moment that Father went and would say, “No they’re good people. They’re not supporting Mukti Bahini.” So like that, he freed them. 

[15:05] Layla: Yeah so, oh sorry, go ahead.

[15:10] Shirin: Then I, when the Pakistani Army came, they came and Father joined the Shanti Committee. So I was alone there, and where your Nana [grandfather] was, they made a camp, understood? I went over to my father’s. I was scared of them, I left. 

[15:34] Layla: What month was this?

[15:36] Shirin: Say two, three months after.

[15:38] Layla: So this was June?

[15:40] Shirin: Yes.

[15:41] Layla: Around June?

[15:42] Shirin: Yes.

[15:43] Layla: Of 1971?

[15:44] Shirin: Yes.

[15:45] Layla: Okay. 

[15:46] Shirin: So I came back. After I came back, I stayed. A few months later, Bangladesh came into being.

[15:57] Layla: In what month? December?

[16:00] Shirin: Nine months later.

[16:03] Layla: Yeah. So you stayed at your dad’s house for six months? 

[16:08] Shirin: Yeah. 

[16:09] Layla: Okay, so during that time that you saw him go to the [mass] graveyard and meet with these East, or sorry, West Pakistan people and you heard all these stories when he would come back?

[16:26] Shirin: Yeah.

[16:27] Layla: Okay. And so after the war, what happened?

[16:32] Shirin: Then the country became independent. Then well everything was in place, I went back to my place again.

[16:43] Layla: So you went back to the hospital grounds?

[16:45] Shirin: Yeah. 

[16:46] Layla: Okay, and then what happened? 

[16:50] Shirin: Then I had my daughter a year later. In 1972. 

[17:03] Layla: In September?

[17:04] Shirin: Yes, the rural area didn’t have a gynecologist so I went back to my father’s house in Sunamganj town. Then I had my daughter in Sunamganj at my father’s house. Then after I had my daughter, three months later my husband was called to Dhaka for his job. He went to Dhaka Medical. 

[17:33] Layla: Okay. 

[17:34] Shirin: I stayed another three months with my daughter. No, up until he found quarters until then. After he found quarters at Dhaka Medical-government quarters-then I went there.

[17:53] Layla: So where were you before in those three months that you were separated?

[17:58] Shirin: Yes.

[17:59] Layla: So where were you when you were separated or?

[18:04] Shirin: I was at my father’s house.

[18:07] Layla: Okay, okay. And he was in Dhaka?

[18:12] Shirin: Yes.

[18:13] Layla: And then you moved there with Ma?

[18:16] Shirin: Yes, after finding quarters. 

[18:19] Layla: And so you moved there with Ma, and that was in 1973?

[18:25] Shirin: Yes. 

[18:26] Layla: Okay, and then how long did you stay in the capital? 

[18:31] Shirin: ‘73. In ‘74, I had my son. My second number child, baby. So he was born at Dhaka Medical. Then when he was three years old, then the Nigerian team came. They recruited your grandpa, so we went to Nigeria, in 1977.

[18:58] Layla: Ok, so moving from Sylhet to Dhaka, how was that for you? Was that like a big change?

[19:10] Shirin: To me, it didn’t feel like a big change. Why is this? All my relatives on my mother’s side were at Dhaka. Plus, when I was little I stayed in Dhaka for a few years. With my father, when my father was doing business. When my maternal grandfather left to Rawalpindi, then we stayed in Sylhet for some time and then my father found a contract, did business, we left to Dhaka when I was little. When I was six, seven years old, we went back to Sunamganj. Then my father settled there, did politics, he stayed. That’s when I went with my husband to Dhaka, then I didn’t feel like I had any problems meaning that to me I found it to be good.

[20:04] Layla: Yeah and so Dhaka was nice for you?

[20:09] Shirin: Yes, plus twice a year we would go to my maternal uncle’s house in Dhaka. At the time in Siddique Bazar, my maternal grandfather, grandmother, uncle lived there. My grandfather from Rawalpindi retired and came here and after he came here they settled. So in a year, we would go there twice. We would make a trip out of it and come back. That’s why I enjoyed it, Dhaka. 

[20:41] Layla: And then you moved in ‘77 again so how was that or what was that process like for you? 

[20:49] Shirin: Oh. When I went to Nigeria, then my older daughter’s age was five and my son’s age was three. So after we went there, at first we got to Lagos. Nigeria’s capital is Lagos. So we got to Lagos. There they gave us a hotel, Puma Hotel, at the hotel many went, as a group, some were engineers, doctors, some were teachers. We were quite a few families at the hotel. So at first when we went, at night there was a party of theirs at the yard of the hotel. At the hotel, they were having a party downstairs. So everyone was dancing, and we had never seen a dance like this so everyone was playing the drums and dancing and shouting. So my husband and a few of his friends got scared thinking what did we come into, what is this. Then my husband, I made him understand, I said, “Look, since we came here already, let’s just see what happens, it’s nothing to fear, they’re human, too. We’re human.” Then the next day, he went to his office. Then the housekeeping came to clean the rooms, now the wives of my husband’s friends out of fear came into my room. Then I told them not to fear anyone, that they came to help us and do work for us. “Why should we fear them? If we do that, we’ll hurt their feelings.” Then they understood. Then after they cleaned everything, then they went back to their rooms. Then little by little, everything was right. Then they assigned everyone to where they were supposed to go, so they put us in another state. We went to Lagos, they put us in Ogun state with a job they sent us. So we went there and so with everyone they gave them somewhere. So out of all the families we went with, out of them, two of them—three of them, three of us families there too, meaning in the Ogun state they put us in the same hotel there, too. Out of us, your—my husband was a doctor, and one was an engineer, one was a teacher, two of them were engineers! Yes, two of them were engineers, we were in the same hotel. There, we didn’t have any issues. And they were friendly, yeah. 

[24:07] Layla: Yeah so in Ogun, so you had like friends there, so you had people there who you knew so it was an easy transition for you. 

[24:20] Shirin: Yes. And they were really—since they were doctors, doctors, engineers, they would think of us—I mean the color was a little different. They would think of us as being foreign meaning the Europeans were light-skinned, they would think of us like that. They would call us oyibo, oyibo. Oyibo meaning light-skinned folk, foreign people. And they really respected us and we didn’t have any problems, wherever we went, they would help us. Like that, they were good people. 

[24:58] Layla: So what was your life like there? What did you do, the day-to-day? Things like that?

[25:08] Shirin: At first, six months at the capital of the Ogun state, Abeokuta is that capital of the Ogun state. At Abeokuta, my husband worked, at Abeokuta Hospital, General Hospital. And after that six months later, there was an Egyptian doctor at Ibiade. That Egyptian doctor left to Ibiade, and then they placed my husband at Ibiade. It was like a rural area, that was also a general hospital, there were a lot of patients but they placed him there. There three doctors were posted. No one wanted to go there. Now we didn’t have a say, that’s why we dutifully went. So my husband went there. We got there and there wasn’t any electricity, and then there wasn’t any water. There were many problems that arose. So there was a rubber garden there. At the rubber garden, foreigners—what do you call it? Japanese lived there, Europeans. So the Europeans lived there, they didn’t have doctors there. So your grandpa meaning my husband would treat them, too. So they had a generator and everything. Where they lived, they had everything running and fixed. But our, the doctors’ quarters, there was no generator. There was no electricity. There was no way to get water. Later, the Japanese that my husband would treat, they then said, “Since you’re working so hard, I’m going to give you a generator.” So they gave us a generator, and then I got electricity. That’s how it was. So we lived like that for almost six years. 

[27:29] Layla: Six years at that—

[27:31] Shirin: Yeah. At Ibiade. So at Ibiade, there was an army major, this one man. He was very helpful. We would go there. His wife was a teacher. He was Nigerian and a really good person. So we had like a friendship. So then he helped us a lot. 

[28:05] Layla: How did he help you?

[28:09] Shirin: So we didn’t know where to go shopping, what to find at what towns, things like that he helped us with. 

[28:18] Layla: I understand. So you were in Ibiade—

[28:22] Shirin: And my kids, the two of them, my boy and my girl, were enrolled in the army school, a good school.

[28:32] Layla: So he helped with that, too?

[28:35] Shirin: Yes. 

[28:36] Layla: Okay. So you were in Ibiade until what year?

[28:42] Shirin: Ibiade? No that was Lagos, sorry I said the wrong thing. 

[28:48] Layla: Oh that was Lagos?

[28:50] Shirin: When we got to Lagos after six years, that was Epe. The middle one was Epe. And here there was a teacher, a female teacher, she was really good. She would help us and my kids studied at that school. 

[29:16] Layla: Okay. And so you were living in Ibiade and then Epe?

[29:25] Shirin: No. Six years after—my husband’s contracts were three years. So after living in Ibiade for three years, it finished. The location’s people were so good despite it being the rural village, still the spirit was very good. They really respected us. They were really helpful towards us. Plus the Japanese who gave us the generator, they would come all the time. We had a good understanding. We became affectionate towards the place. Since we lived there for so long. Then your grandfather, my husband said, “Come on. Let’s stay for another three years.” The same place that he didn’t even want to come to, I mean he came here and started crying. This is the same place that now he’s saying, “Come on, let’s stay for another three years.” So then they were the ones gave it to us, your grandfather would treat the patients well. He would do hernia operations, gynecology, Caesarians, everything. He would do operations and then he would practice medicine, too. He was able to do everything. The people really loved him. One day what happened, that day was a Saturday. So they’re closed on Saturdays. Now I got all dressed, I was ready to take my two kids and the family and since it’s a rural area, we can’t really go out. We can’t see any of my fellow countrymen. So from here, Benin was a three hour drive. So we thought that since it’s a Saturday, let’s go and take a trip and stay one day. I got all dressed up and all of a sudden someone came and said, “There’s a patient, it’s a serious situation, she’s going to have a baby, come quickly.” He said to wait a little bit, I’m coming. He went and then he didn’t come back. Two hours passed. What’s the matter? Two hours passed and why hasn’t he come back? And the campus was a walking distance, you could walk there. I walked there to the hospital to check out what was happening. I get there and I see this woman, she’s having three kids at once! Now I, at once, went inside. And inside, two children were already born and one was about to be had and the nurses were occupied with the two babies, running around. I said, “God, another child’s being born!” I saw it and thought let me help this baby, meaning the mother was in such a situation. I wanted to help her if I could. I forgot all about the trip. And I’ve never in my life heard that you could have three children at once. It was something that shocked me. Then, what trip? I said “Okay, you stay, take care of them, I’m going home. I left the kids. The two little kids.” At home, I was at peace. And I was still thinking about the three babies and how the three nurses were going to handle three babies. That’s what happened when we planned our trip.

[33:18] Layla: Yeah, you got attached to it. 

[33:20] Shirin: Yes. 

[33:22] Layla: So then why did you leave?

[33:27] Shirin: Then six years passed. The contract was for three years, then they gave us another three years. And your grandpa had a desire to take a higher degree. So then he was studying. They would send books, they would send everything, the admission happened meaning— 

[33:47] Layla: Who would send it?

[33:49] Shirin: Meaning there there was a—in Ireland. Where you study—what do you call it? Your grandpa knows. From there, he applied for education, that he wants to do higher education so help me. They told him to study these things. So he studied and took the exams, they sent him the questions and the answers, and they got him admitted. He sent the money already and they said his admission already happened and that they accepted his money and that they accepted everything. They said, “Your admission happened. You can come.” Everything was in place. Then we thought it’s already been six years, there’s no longer any need. There’s a desire to go abroad to get a higher degree. So let’s go to Ireland. So we went to Ireland. After going there, then one of his friends came to visit, a Bangladeshi friend, so your—my husband is saying my paperwork is already done, they even took my admission money, now I’m just waiting to start classes. He [the friend] said you better figure everything out. You still have time to figure everything out, we know that after 1972, Bangladesh Medical College’s degree is not recognized anymore for England. So he said, “How is that possible? My fees, everything, they took, plus they gave me this letter that I can do classes, that the admission happened. I even came here, if it’s not recognized, then how did they give me all this?” He told us to go to the office. So he went to the office and said it. Now they rechecked everything. They saw it and said, “Yeah, it’s right because you could give the written exam and do everything but when it comes to the practical, you have to study step by step, so that’s allowed, you can give the exam, but verbally when you have to—no verbally you’re fine, but when you have to practically do surgery training, things like that, that’s another one year or however many years, when you do that, then they won’t allow you to. 

[37:06] Layla: So at this point, you were in England?

[37:11] Shirin: We were in Ireland, we went there. Then your grandpa was really upset and didn’t know what to do. It happened but didn’t happen for us. Everything happened and then we went back—went back, well. We came here with everything to stay here and now we have to go to Bangladesh. From there, we don’t know when we’ll be back, but I have a sister in America. Last visit—when we were in Nigeria, each one and a half years, they would give us world-wherever you wanted in the world to visit-tickets. Then we went to England, Singapore, like that we would visit place to place. Only America we didn’t go to. So we thought this is our last, no more vacationing is going to be happening, and our tickets they already gave us, so let’s go to America at my sister’s, our last vacation and then finally to Bangladesh. So that’s how we came to America in ‘81. In ‘81 we came and stayed for a month and a half. Then my sister said that since you came and since you have money at the bank, we would send money to Barclays Bank at the time. America’s Barclays Bank. Some in Bangladesh and some we would send here at our bank, we opened a bank from Nigeria. “Since you have money here, there’s now a path to becoming legal, stay a few months.” We didn’t think it was wise. Staying at my sister’s house, and we’re legally not going to find a job, my husband isn’t going to legally be able get a job, he would have to do odd jobs. So let’s vacation here for a month and then go to Bangladesh. We vacationed for a month and then went to Bangladesh and from there we applied for America. Since my sister is a citizen, so to immigrate I applied. Yes. So we are seven siblings. Out of the seven siblings, I’m the oldest. So six siblings are all in America, they applied before, they were all here. My sister told me to apply. Our plan at the time was not to come to America because his desire at the time—my husband’s desire was higher studying, getting a degree, that’s why we didn’t apply before. Then when nothing happened in Ireland and we finally went to Bangladesh, then we applied for America. So I came after everyone as the last one to America. So in ‘81 I applied and in ‘87, we came to America. Oh, after applying in ‘81, your grandpa, my husband, left me and again went back to Nigeria. I stayed in Dhaka, in Jigatola, with my two kids. We enrolled them in private school at Scholastica. So we were there for two years in Dhaka. Again, your grandpa, my husband brought us to Nigeria. Over there it’s a three year contract so we stayed there. And then in ‘81, we came here.

[41:25] Layla: ‘87?

[41:26] Shirin: Yes, in Bangladesh, the three years were up. Then we went to Dhaka again. When they called us in ‘87, then we came.

[41:38] Layla: Okay, so you applied in ‘81 though. Okay so when you left Dhaka the first time for Nigeria, did you think that you were going to leave Bangladesh permanently? Did you think—

[41:55] Shirin: No. 

[41:56] Layla: You thought you would come back after three years?

[41:58] Shirin: Yes. 

[41:59] Layla: And live there in Bangladesh for the rest of your life?

[42:03] Shirin: Yeah, no. Rest of the life, not like that. Our intention was to go there, get some money, then in Ireland, since we need to study to get the higher degree, so once we have some money then he can do his full studies, I can stay at home and take care of everything, we can pay the rent and pay for the studies, that’s why we saved the money from Nigeria.

[42:36] Layla: Okay, so the plan was to move to Ireland?

[42:40] Shirin: Ireland, for the higher degree. 

[42:43] Layla: And so, and then from Ireland—

[42:45] Shirin: When it didn’t happen—

[42:47] Layla: But what was the plan before? So you thought you were going to go to Nigeria and then Ireland and then back to Bangladesh?

[42:54] Shirin: Yeah.

[42:55] Layla: And then live in Bangladesh for the rest of your life?

[42:59] Shirin: No, no. Not rest of—

[43:00] Layla: That’s what you thought, no?

[43:01] Shirin: No, not rest of life for Bangladesh. I knew my sister was in America.

[43:06] Layla: Oh, so back when you first left Dhaka, the plan was always to move to America at the end?

[43:16] Shirin: No. Then, I didn’t know that my husband’s higher degree wouldn’t happen. When I went to Nigeria, then we planned to work for six years and accumulate money for a higher degree. 

[43:34] Layla: And then live in Ireland, no?

[43:36] Shirin: Live there to study, for the higher degree, to live in Ireland. When he gets the degree, when the FRCS is completed, then we’ll go to Bangladesh. At Bangladesh, we can settle down well. Then he would be a professor, we could settle down well in Bangladesh.

[44:00] Layla: Oh the plan was to be a professor not a doctor?

[44:03] Shirin: So like a doctor’s professor, like a specialist.

[44:10] Layla: Right, okay so the plan wasn’t to be a working surgeon but a professor.

[44:18] Shirin: Yeah, like a specialist. That’s why we didn’t want to go to America, we paid attention that way [to Bangladesh]. When it didn’t happen in Ireland, then we were like okay, we have to go to Bangladesh. So we got to Bangladesh and applied to America, and then in seven years meaning in ‘87. 

[44:48] Layla: And then in ‘87 you came here, you took the plane, you got off at the airport, and then you came to Paterson or Clifton or where did you—

[45:03] Shirin: My sister lived in Clifton, in Clifton, and my brothers lived in Paterson, so I first got to my brother’s house. Then I stayed there one month—about fifteen days, two weeks. So at the bank, at Barclays Bank, we already had some money. The money from Nigeria that I would put in the bank. Then I rented a house on Liberty Street in Paterson. We lived there for about a year and then we bought a house. My sisters too—

[45:46] Layla: This house here?

[45:48] Shirin: Yes. At Wayne Avenue. I enrolled my two kids at the Kennedy school. Then they started school there. And my husband’s old desire was still there, the one that he couldn’t accomplish, he couldn’t get his higher degree. Over here, he didn’t want to do any odd jobs. He said, “No, if it’s not that job, I don’t want to do anything else.” I said, “Fine, you do your studies. Do your USMLE [United States Medical Licensing Examination] exam, study for your exam, for America, and I’ll work.” Because sitting around, whatever money we had in the bank would finish. Two weeks later, I got a job. 

[46:36] Layla: Two weeks after first moving here?

[46:39] Shirin: Yes. But I had never worked before. I only passed my SSC [Secondary School Certificate]. So I was a housewife in my country. But coming here, I entered the workforce at an electronics company. So after getting that job—it was a really good company, there were only twenty, thirty women and out of them, they were from Poland, Russia, America, and there were two Indians and two Bangladeshis. There was no one else, there weren’t any Hispanics. So my sister worked there at this company. She got me the job at the electronics company. 

[47:20] Layla: Which sister?

[47:21] Shirin: Parveen.

[47:23] Layla: Okay, the one who first helped you come here?

[47:27] Shirin: Yeah, then when I got the job there, after I got the job, I started to work. One month later, the owner, the company’s owner and chemical engineers were there, at their office, they called me in, they called me in and told me, “If I give you a good offer, would you”— no, when I was working, they came to me and asked what I was back in my country. I said that I was a housewife. They said, “You weren’t a doctor in your country?” I said, “No, I wasn’t a doctor.” They said, “If we gave you a promotion, would you take it?” No, they one day told me to go to the office. Then I went to the office, and they asked, “If we gave you a promotion, would you take it?” I said, “Of course, if you teach me, I’ll do it.” That’s when he said, “I’ll put you on the microscopes, and you’ll just check them, you’ll do inspections.” I had never used microscopes before. The supervisor was going to teach me everything. Then, I, that day they gave me everything. The supervisor was told to teach me everything. Then the supervisor taught me, that was another situation. He taught me and then the supervisor was relaxed. He didn’t do too much work, he put everything on me. Then three or four months later, they fired the supervisor and only kept me. They had to pay the supervisor thirty-six thousand per year, that’s how it was back then. And they paid me, if you work in a factory, they pay you two dollars an hour. They would pay me six dollars per hour since it was an electronics company. So they calculated that why should they give thirty-seven thousand to the supervisor if I had learned everything. Later, I felt really bad for that man that it was because of me that he lost his job. Whatever happened, I worked there for ten years.

[50:04] Layla: Oh you were there for ten years?

[50:05] Shirin: Yeah.

[50:06] Layla: And then after—

[50:07] Shirin: By this time, I was also enrolled at PCC [Passaic Community College] for ESL. 

[50:13] Layla: And then you were at—

[50:16] Shirin: The kids would go to school. I would go to work. In the evenings, I would go to PCC. Like that, that’s how it went for me. And your, my husband, for two years he tried, he was enrolled at Kaplan too to do his USMLE but due to bad luck, my son had an accident. My younger son, in the road, when crossing the road, there was a car accident and he was in the hospital for three months. I stopped going to college. His studies stopped, too. He couldn’t do his USMLE anymore. Then in ‘96, my husband had a heart attack [while at work as a phlebotomist].

[51:14] Layla: So after the, so after you were at the company for ten years, what did you do after that?

[51:24] Shirin: After that, my husband’s heart attack happened. There was an operation, open-heart surgery. He was sick. My son and daughter went to college. So when they were at high school at the Kennedy school, they never got a B. They always got As. So they both went to the same college and got good grades. Then I had to pay attention to them. Plus, I had to take care of my husband. Then when they went to college, then I tried to for my own—I didn’t feel good. I was bored. Then I got a store. 

[52:19] Layla: So that was after both of them were in Rutgers, right?

[52:24] Shirin: Yeah.

[52:25] Layla: After both of them left. So and then you started a store in Paterson? 

[52:31] Shirin: Yes.

[52:32] Layla: Okay, so this was a convenience store?

[52:34] Shirin: A convenience store. 

[52:36] Layla: Okay, and so you had that for how long?

[52:41] Shirin: That was eight months that I ran it. Then there were problems in that store. Meaning upstairs, the owner’s house caught on fire. My store was downstairs, and the store was gone. So like that I—later the store happened and everything. Then my daughter went to medical school, she worked and got married, so when she had her child, she was doing her residency. Husband, wife, the two of them were doing their residency. They gave me the one-month old child. I took care of the child and I took care of my husband. 

[53:36] Mohammed Talukder: That child is this child. 

[53:37] Shirin: Yes, that child is this Layla. 

[53:42] Layla: Yeah, and so at this point, you were happy with the store? I imagine you were happy with your life.

[53:48] Shirin: Yes, the fact that I could do something, I really enjoyed it.

[53:52] Layla: Yeah, because this was like your own business that you had. 

[53:56] Shirin: Yes.

[53:57] Layla: Yeah so when that burned down—

[53:59] Shirin: That was in ‘96. 

[54:00] Layla: That was ‘96. So when that burned down—

[54:03] Shirin: Yeah that burned down. Then my daughter became a doctor, I had to give her time because she would sometimes have to work two days, forty-eight hours, she would work. What’s it called? Internship or residency? So like that, they wouldn’t have time to come home and eat. So for them I would cook for them. One day only they would find us in the evening and then the next morning, after working forty-eight hours, they would come home for one night so I would cook and leave food for them. They would come, and the distance from here to there was just forty-five minutes. 

[54:55] Layla: From the hospital?

[54:56] Shirin: No from their house. In Arlington. 

[54:59] Layla: Okay, in North Arlington. 

[55:01] Shirin: Yes, they would come to Paterson, take the food, they didn’t have time to talk, they would go, and like that they did their duties. My older son was then a student, a medical student. I would have to see him, too. I would have to give him food sometimes. He was also really busy with his studies. With that, my time passed. Then when I had Layla, my daughter-they were doing their residency. They didn’t have any time. Right after they had the child, my Layla was born at Paterson hospital [St. Joseph’s]. After having her there, then one week later I brought her to my house. So here Ma left her child and went to Arlington hospital crying. And I took care of her. Until she was five—I had her enrolled here in private school [St. Mary’s]. Her first school was a Paterson private school. 

[56:17] Layla: Yeah, it’s true, so I mean how would you describe your time here? Are you happier here compared to Bangladesh? Do you think you would prefer to be there instead?

[56:34] Shirin: I liked it here, why is this? Every one of my—my father, mother, brothers, sisters, all my relatives were all here. Plus this is such a country that it’s a melting pot. Everyone here, there was no discrimination. Everyone, whatever they want to do, they can. If they want to be good, they can be good. If they want to be bad, they can be bad. Here there’s a mosque, a church, the Jewish temple, there’s everything here. Plus if you want to get an education, there’s a path. In our country, if you want to get an education and even if you do it, you can’t find a job. In this country, you do a little education and you get a job like that. If you do a lot of education and get a good degree, there’s jobs like that. Meaning there’s a path for everything.

[57:30] Layla: Right. There’s like a different job market here. 

[57:34] Shirin: Yes. In regards to everything, that’s why they said it. We came to America and understood this. That in the world, it’s them. Because to have easy paths like that, it doesn’t exist in any other country. 

[57:46] Layla: So was the process to come here easier than the process to go to Ireland or Nigeria or how was that part?

[58:01] Shirin: Even out of everything when I compare it, I’ll say America is the best. 

[58:06] Layla: For the immigration process?

[58:09] Shirin: Yes.

[58:10] Layla: It was the easiest to come here, the process was fast.

[58:11] Shirin: The easiest, the facilities, everything. Then, another thing. So my father was a politician in our country. After he came here, meaning the fact that there were good politicians, good people here, the help that they gave us. My father in his time got his Bachelor’s degree. After he came here, they meaning the politicians here, out of the Bangladeshi community they were looking for someone good when it was election time. 

[58:49] Layla: Which politicians? Can you name some?

[58:51] Shirin: Pascrell.

[58:52] Layla: Okay, so Bill Pascrell.

[58:54] Shirin: Yeah Bill Pascrell.

[58:55] Layla: Back then, he was the mayor of Paterson, current congressman, okay.

[59:01] Shirin: Yeah, so he really respected Father. And he had good relations with Father. So if there was a meeting within the Bangladeshi community, Pascrell would come. Father would go, too. It was like that. He had really good relations with Pascrell. So that way too we had peace. If our community wanted to do something like how we made a mosque, he [Pascrell] helped. Anything. A picnic, a festival, he would come to those. Any meeting within the Bangladeshi community, any event that happened, he would come and join us. 

[59:48] Layla: So you felt like you had help here?

[59:52] Shirin: Even now, Pascrell, meaning our family, whenever he comes to a Bengali event, he praises us that we helped him at the beginning, my paternal cousin was alive at the time, he helped him, my husband helped him with the votes and with everything, that’s why he even now remembers our family. 

[1:00:17] Layla: So overall, you’re happy here, right?

[1:00:18] Shirin: Yes in every way. 

[1:00:19] Layla: What do you think your life would be like if you stayed in Bangladesh or is it hard to say? 

[1:00:29] Shirin: Yes.

[1:00:30] Layla: Yeah, you don’t know.

[1:00:33] Shirin: You don’t know. I even bought my grave plots for me and my husband here if I die so that I’m buried here. Because there’s everything here, there’s mosques, my Bengali people can worship here, they can visit their graves, they can do everything here. 

[1:00:58] Layla: So do you feel like you’re American or do you still feel like at your identity, you’re still Bangla?

[1:01:07] Shirin: Where you live is a-meaning, what do I say? You have to be grateful to God that, “God, you have me here. I’m receiving everything, I’m good.” Thanks to God. So that’s how I am. And my mother was buried here, my father was buried in our country. And now everything of ours is here. And people’s religion, if in my heart there’s a religion, I can practice it from America or from Bangladesh. So there’s no dilemma there. Everything happened for a reason. 

[01:02:08] Layla: Okay, how would you, okay how would you say the culture here is different than in Bangladesh or in Ireland or Nigeria or?

[01:02:22] Shirin: The different culture is that in this country, insurance. In our country, if the son works and the parents are old, then the kids, the sons take care of the parents. In this country, that custom isn’t here. Once the kids, once the sons marry and have families, then the son’s family is his wife, they don’t take care of the parents. That’s not any custom. Here, although the government gives insurance. The government oversees. But that’s not a custom that your kids take care of you. But in our country, our culture’s custom is that if your father ages, you look after them and you have a responsibility. But in this country what’s their responsibility? The kids’ responsibility that you look after your parents as a duty, that’s not understood by the kids. That’s the cultural difference. 

[1:03:38] Layla: Yeah, okay, I think those are all of my questions. I think you answered everything, oh actually I have one last one. How would you say the cultures of where you lived in Lagos or in, so both in the city and in the rural area of Nigeria and Bangladesh, how is it the same or how is it different? 

[1:04:09] Shirin: Every place has a culture, how people live, it’s different everywhere. But none of them are bad. I was born in Bangladesh, I was raised in Bangladesh, my childhood memories come up, we all lived together. Before in Bangladesh, the family all lived together. Now of course that’s all changing in Bangladesh, but in this country kids from the start understand that until this age I’ll live with my parents, until eighteen, and then I have a separate life. But that’s not how it was in Bangladesh. Parents, in-laws, all lived together and then all had get-togethers, that. In this country, that doesn’t exist. Here everyone’s busy with their own lives, hard life. They have to eat, work, take care of their family, raise their children, that, or there’s no hope. In Bangladesh, if one brother had an issue, got sick, then the other brothers and the parents altogether would take care of him and his family and everyone. It’s not like that in this country. You got sick, you died, we don’t have anymore responsibility. That’s the government’s responsibility. The government will oversee it. Our duties are to ourselves. But for us it’s not like that.

[1:05:46] Layla: Yeah it’s cultural differences.

[1:05:48] Shirin: It’s cultural. 

[1:05:49] Layla: Yeah, okay. So I guess thank you Nanu [Grandma] for doing this with me and for answering all my questions so.

[1:05:58] Shirin: I’m also really happy to tell you all this because I never in regards to my life like this, no one even asked me. You, how I raised you, that’s how you took all of my heart’s words from inside me. Thank you for—

[1:06:19] Layla: Yeah of course, you’re welcome. 

[1:06:20] Shirin: Yeah.

[1:06:21] Layla: Okay.