Ancestral Herbal Narratives

[0:11] Nicole Wines: So welcome Antonia. Thank you so much for agreeing to be a part of the Herbal Ancestral Narratives, oral history collection with Raíces Cultural Center. My name is Nicole Wines, and if you could please introduce yourself and tell us your, your full name, where you are born, where you live, where you are now?

[0:35] Antonia Estela Pérez: Yes. My name is Antonia Estela Pérez. I usually live in between New York City and the Mohican Tuck Valley. Also known as the Hudson Valley, but I’m currently in Chile on Mapuche, Diaguita, Aymara lands and back home. This is also home. These are my homelands, but usually I’m on Lenape territory.

[1:09] Nicole: Great. Thank you so much for that introduction to yourself and where you are. Where, can you, I’m gonna start with a really big question and then we’re gonna narrow it down into your, your story specifically. Can you tell me what the word healing means to you?

[01:31] Antonia: Healing means to me, hmm. I think healing has taken many different shapes and understandings to me throughout time and my life so far. I think right now what healing is meaning for me is giving oneself the space and the attention to feel what is, what is happening inside of our body. And to see what’s happening around us in the Earth, in our communities as a reflection of the internal landscape and vice versa. How the external landscape impacts our internal landscape and giving the attention to tend to those pieces that are imbalanced. And finding the ways to give and allow more ease to bring, more joy to bring, yeah, as I just said, ease into our feeling in our body, into the ease of our relationships, giving light and attention, to what’s been harmed and what’s caused pain, and creating spaces where we can feel that and where we can move through that and give attention to that, while also giving attention to what brings us life and to the life-giving parts of ourselves.

[3:25] Nicole: Right. Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about the connection that you’ve had to herbs and herbalism and herbal healing through your life?

[3:36] Antonia: Definitely. Well, that started really young. I mean, some of the first memories I have are just getting herbal tea before bed, like chamomile and I have a really vivid memory of always asking, my dad or my mom for chamomile tea for manzanilla before going to sleep. And I love thinking of this memory ’cause it really shows how, you know, as a four year old’s, 5-year-old, my body knew that this was medicine and that I needed that to help me go to sleep. And so I love thinking of my younger self knowing what medicine I needed. And my parents both come from lineages of family who have been in deep relationship to the land and herbs as a form of healing, supporting their body, through sickness. And when they immigrated to New York, they definitely brought that practice with them too.

[4:56] Nicole: So did you learn directly from them?

[5:01] Antonia: I learned, I think the main components that I learned from them is sensitivity and care and respect for the Earth and understanding the, the Earth as sacred and, and as their elder. And that all like from the smallest plastic, like what is our relationship to that, that plastic or that piece of paper. And yeah, yeah, just being really attentful to our impact on, on the Earth. And I’ve learned a lot through them about plants, but I wouldn’t say they, personally have like, they’re not like an encyclopedia of herbs, but it definitely comes through in like different moments and memories. And sometimes I’m really surprised I’m like, oh, why didn’t you share this before? But I would say my grandma on my mom’s side is who I learned a lot from and who was always studying until, you know, she was a hundred, always referencing her mom’s herbal book. And that was really beautiful to see that relationship to learning even as an elder and continuing to to reference. So hearing her stories of how she grew up and how her grandma supported them when they were sick, like compresses those stories were really important to give a picture of how people were in relationship to their body and the land before, specifically in Chile. Industrialization and like development has happened really, really quickly. And so hearing the stories of how my grandma grew up and everything that she’s witnessed in the century of her life was such powerful imagery for me to see that, oh, the world has not always been like this and what has been lost through all this. So-called progress. And so much of that has been our relationship to the Earth and our knowledge and wisdom of the plants and how to heal ourselves, especially with the introduction and emphasis of pharmaceutical medicine. And not that that is, that I don’t believe or, um, in pharmaceutical medicine, but more so the dependency on pharmaceutical medicine for all of our ailments that could very well be either mitigated or prevented by having a closer relationship with the plants.

[8:30] Nicole: That’s been a very common thread in a lot of conversations that we’ve been having with, with herbalists and people who work with plants. I wanna ask a follow-up question because you mentioned something and it caught my ear, but you said herbal book that was your great-grand great-grandmother, or your great-great grandmother’s herbal book that you referenced?

[8:51] Antonia That was my great-grandma’s book.

[8:53] Nicole: Your great-grandmother.

[8:54] Antonia: That my grandma had.

[8:56] Nicole: And when you say book

[8:57] Antonia: Mm-Hmm.

[8:57] Nicole: Do you mean a book that was published that she had and she learned from, or a book where she kept her notes and, and records of the remedies that she learned about?

[9:06] Antonia: Oh, it, it was a published book. I don’t recall right now the name of it, but my grandma had like, I don’t know how many recipe books and I have yet to open them and go into a deep dive with them. I think my biggest like roadblock there is her handwriting. I mean, super beautiful in scripts, but I think I have, you know, being from a generation where we learn script, but like didn’t necessarily learn to like be in the, the practice of reading in script. That’s been a little block. But I am really excited to go into these books because she did write many books and, you know, not necessarily like to, with the idea of publishing them or anything, but more her writing down her recipes.

[10:10] Nicole:Mm-Hmm.

[10:11] Antonia: And there are, yeah, I don’t know how many, probably like a hundred of them. And so I’m sure in those, in those books she must have also written about herbs.

[10:26] Nicole: Yeah. Did, are you saying a hundred books?

[10:30] Antonia: Yeah, like recipe books,

[10:32] Nicole: Uh huh.

[10:33] Antonia: That, that she, I mean, yeah. That she collected or that she made over her life and she passed away when she was 101, so that’s why so many, so many books. But she also was a teacher and she, her, her specialty or her career was nutrition, a nutrition teacher and, and home ed. And so she spent a lot of time also learning about food specifically and nutrition and food as medicine. So when I think of one of the reasons why my grandma was able to live so long definitely is always having her herbal teas every day. Homeopathic medicine was really a big part of her, like, I guess inventory of herbal support but also her diet. And like the proportions of how she ate and the way she chewed.She just had such an understanding of her body as an organism and her body’s relationship to what she was putting in her body as like, oh, this is going to give me this medicine and these vitamins, and tomorrow I’m gonna bring in these vitamins. So it was like, she always said, you know, you want to eat the spectrum of the rainbow and not too much and everything in balance. So she also taught me the food aspect of health that I sometimes find people compartmentalize of like definitely herbs, but also definitely food. And it’s, they’re both, you know, intertwined, and then, you know, food herbs. But it’s, it’s everything. It’s also like our movement and how, and we’re detoxing our body and not detoxing by like all the negative and harmful ways that people kind of view detox, like end up depleting our body, but more so like a regular practice of sweating and releasing toxins in the body and, and strengthening our bones and our musculoskeletal system. So my grandma in so many ways was just an example of like, balance and integrating all these pieces of how to be healthy.

[13:32] Nicole: Do you have any specific memories of of your grandmother in, in practice of herbal healing or herbal remedies that stand out to you? I mean, you mentioned a few things, but if, was there, like, is there a story or memory that just sticks with you?

[13:49] Antonia: Yeah, many. I, it always stood out to me and I’m still, I’m still parsing through, like her relationship to wormwood and rue because after lunch she would always have some kind of tea. Maybe it was cedron or melisa, so that meant verbena or lemon balm, or chamomile. But she really loved also having rue or wormwood. She had, she lived in an apartment but had a balcony full of herbs and she would put one little leaf of rue maybe like that much and like that much of wormwood, but it was either wormwood or rue and would have put it into some boiling water. And it wouldn’t really change color. It would just like steep in there for a few minutes and then she would take it out. And I’d always be like, I don’t, I was so confused ’cause I didn’t see a change happen, but I, but for her it was perfect. Like, it was, I think just the amount for like the essence and a certain amount of like, of the terpenes, essential oils to get into the water for it to have flavor. And that was perfect for her. And that was like her digestif, her digestive tea. And I think as I’ve continued to learn and like how our bodies change as an elder that was the amount that she needed. Or sometimes I’ll hear like the world of herbalism, like spirit dose. And so, I mean, for her body at that time, and like her sensitivity, she didn’t need this strong infusion or like this deep kind of medicine, digestive infusion. She just needed that little bit of the flavor and of the, the, the constituents in the water and that was enough for her. Whereas I think for me and my, as a younger being, being like, I like wanting more, like wanting more to feel more.

[16:21] Nicole: Right.

[16:22] Antonia: And so that’s been a big lesson of like, you don’t necessarily need more to feel the impacts of something, but learning the subtleties of a plant can also give you so much medicine. Or even like coming into relationship with a plant by sitting with them and receiving their medicine in that way, and learning to be in a relationship with the plant that is more and more practicing that sensitivity and that relationality versus like, I’m gonna harvest more. That we, that we don’t need so much that we can receive just as much with less. So that, that’s been a, a image that I return back to quite often. And another memory that is also coming to mind is my grandma every week would have, well, she would, she had a movement practice every day, some tai chi, stretching but she also received acupuncture every week and reiki and seeing her in that practice of tending to herself was so beautiful to see that her commitment to maintaining her relationship with her body.

[18:21] Nicole: Just from the few minutes that, oh, sorry, go ahead.

[18:26] Antonia: No, no, go ahead.

[18:28] Nicole: I was gonna say just from the few minutes that you’ve talked about your grandmother, I can tell you had a really strong bond and that she really influenced you and that your relationship was very strong.

[18:38] Antonia: Yeah.

[18:39] Nicole: And, and you said you learned from her, so did she, a lot, a lot about the herbal healing and herbs and plants. So did, did she teach you in a formal way or was it more through observation that you learned?

[18:53] Antonia: Definitely more, more through observation, definitely more from her way of being in life. And I think that’s, I’ve had such a strong desire to, I think from a young age to like have that mentor that’s like, okay, and now we’re gonna learn about this plant, and now we’re gonna learn about that plant. And realizing like, oh, all the mentorship that I’ve had is through observation, like the, the, I guess the deepest mentorship that I’ve received has been through mentorship and from have, like, learning in those ways of, you know, beyond the herbalism. It’s really like how to live your life in a respectful and value centered way so that you’re in right relationship with the Earth, with yourself, with your family. And elders that I’ve learned from my grandma, have been such beautiful examples of, of that. Because then when you come into relationship with the herbs, if you’re coming into relationship from that place of having a humble heart and having respect, then that relationship will be coming from that place. And I see so much now in herbalism as it’s become more popular just how we’re at risk or it’s already happening, happening of the plants getting commodified and exploitation and extraction. And that kind of disconnect of like, okay, these plants are medicinal and they’re helping me, but what are we doing to support the plants and support the soil where these plants are, are growing in or to support the ecology where the plants are growing. And so it feel, it’s kind of ironic of like, we’re wanting to be in deeper relationship with the plants to support ourselves, but yet, like we miss the piece of how that’s interconnected in, in terms of, it’s not just about me, it’s about how we’re tending to the whole internal external landscape. And going back to the initial question of healing, it’s not just about healing myself. It’s about how are we all healing and changing patterns that are creating so much, harm in in the world.

[21:58] Nicole: Do you, do you currently practice herbal healing traditions? Do you consider yourself an herbalist, an herbal healer? How, how do you, what do you, what do you, it’s, I don’t mean to ask like for you to label yourself, but how do you consider, like what would you tell people when they ask you about it?

[22:16] Antonia: Yeah, I, I would say, or I would say, um, I grow many herbs. And, you know, I, I hope to one day grow all the herbs possible for so many reasons beyond just making herbal medicine, which I, which I make. And that is in the form of tinctures, powders, teas, oils and, but also growing them like I was saying before, how much medicine we receive by just sitting with them and learning about them, like in their life, in their, in their full expression. So I also offer a lot, I, I teach a lot. That’s, I think one of my biggest passion is to share my excitement for the herbs with other people and to support them in developing the relationship. So I see herbalism and my role as an herbalist beyond just the medicine and tending part of it, but also getting to share that passion with other people. So other people also learn the, the skills of identification and learning. Oh, this plant can support, you know, my migraines or can support my digestion. And that’s really, I think where, you know, the idea of Plants to the People, for example, that even the idea of Herban Cura originally came from was seeing how much, sense of knowing and like grounding and orientation of myself to my ancestors, to the land of New York City, that knowing the plants there was giving to me of like, I, I recognize the beings that are around me. And at that time I was like, well, if shit hits the fan, like I know these plants that can support, uh, healing wounds, you know, stopping blood, like this is an antiviral, this is an antibacterial. We need to know these plants, for the really serious moments. And then I was like, oh and also these moments right now, ’cause shit is hitting the fan right now, people don’t have healthcare right now. People are, are suffering or experiencing, you know, diabetes right now, asthma,

colon cancer right now, and don’t have the financial resources to get the medications that they need. And so our Plants to the People where we’re distributing herbs that we’re growing and receiving from other farms and distributing herbs that are medicinal and also recognizable to our community in Washington Heights, which is predominantly immigrant, Dominican from Quisqueya, from Dominican Republic, but also Haiti and Mexico. It’s such a beautiful moment of exchange of them recognizing many of the plants and then being like, oh, I remember when my grandma would do this. Or my uncle or my mom. Oh, this oregano is great for ear aches. Oh, verdolaga personally, like, we make a really delicious dish with, with this, or, you know, for postpartum. So it’s been such a beautiful experience to, you know, expand. I’m still answering the question of herbalism, like to expand like what herbalism is. ‘Cause there really isn’t this like, direct pathway of like, and then this is the path of the herbalist and coming from a lineage of, you know, parents who have been activists and you know, social justice has been like central to their life. Like, it’s been really important for me to, or it kind of, it’s inseparable for me to separate herbalism from social justice and how plants we’ve always turned to the plants and plants and our relationship to land are so inter integral, integral, to culture and identity. And understanding where we, where we come from and, and beyond just where we come from. ’cause many of us don’t know where we come from, but understanding where we are now.And I think it can bring a lot of I guess sense of healing or opening to trace like the stories of these plants, which also trace a human history. So as an herbalist, I’m in many different sectors and I am really excited about. yeah, continuing to find the ways that herbalism and healing justice play a role in our, in our movement, our food justice movement. Our social justice movements.

[28:42] Nicole: Who, who who do you consider other teachers of yours besides your grandmother, besides the plants that you’ve learned from and learned from directly? Do you have any, anyone that you wanna mention as teachers that have been a big influence on you?

[29:02] Antonia: I wanna mention so many of the grandmothers, abuelitas, aunties, mamitas whose names I don’t even know, just walking in Peru and Argentina and the mountains and like being like, does this plant do this? And then being like, yeah, this plant does this, and explaining things to me. So just like the people that are in deep relationship to the land and then more formal teachers, Machi Jorge here in Chile. Dear friend Etienne, who’s a massage therapist, but also has been really deep in the world of Chinese medicine. A teacher in Thailand, Homprang, who has taught me also about Thai and massage therapy, but also Thai herbalism. Dina Falconi in the Northeast. I also went to Arborvitae Clinical Herbalism School. Yeah, there’s, so, there’s so many people to, to give gratitude for, people who have, you know, I’ve spent a day with to people that I’ve spent many days with to like more, focused apprenticeship. And then also big gratitude to the teachers that I’ve had in Mexico. As well, there’s many señoras Isabelas that have taught me about maíz and cacao and all of these teachers and experiences that I’ve had being on these different territories have been so important for seeing the ways that these lands are interrelated and that, and like basic frameworks of like the similarities in, in ceremony, the similarities, in like relating to healing and plants based on elements, like earth fire, water, air, and seeing how that’s just universal and no matter where in the world and what plants exist there, like, that’s so foundational. And how every human, every culture has their material medica and has their, their science. And that’s, that’s so profound because especially right now, where we can access so much information from everywhere and be like, oh, we didn’t know all the plants of the world. It’s like, that’s infinite, that’s an infinite, path. But how we can access so much knowledge from just the plants that are growing outside of our door? And that those are the plants that are growing right here, those are the plants that have the, the medicine we need. And I, I really like to mention that because I think right now a lot of folks are excited and like we romanticize the plants that grow elsewhere and the tropical plants and the Amazonian plants, and it’s like, yes, of course they’re incredibly powerful and like the plants that are growing around us are as well, right? But the, there’s like a sense of like, oh, they’re less than. But when we start tracing the roots of like, well, where are these plants coming from? And what were the relationships of between that plant and the people, where these plants and people evolved. There’s so much, there’s so much that comes from there. Like, just even thinking about mugwort as an example. You mentioned a lot about the connection of culture to herbs and plants and herbalism and healing practices.

[33:56] Nicole: Can you talk a little bit about for you, what is your connection? What is the connection for you between your culture and herbs and plants, the use of them?

[34:07] Antonio: Let’s see. Well as being a diasporic being from growing up in New York City and from Chile, who of course also experienced colonization and you know, now as Chile, similar, similarly here, here as in Chile, there’s been so much assimilation and so much forgetting that I’m almost doing like a double parallel process of like decolonization and understanding of like, okay, what is the history of colonization on Turtle Island in the Napa territory, but also like, what is the story of colonization on these lands in the Andes, in Abya Yala, in South America? Excuse me. And so I’ve been really lucky in this process of learning my, my roots, through, you know, asking a lot of questions to my parents, to my grandma, and then finding my way to different Mapuche healers and community who have invited me in, which is actually really rare because there’s a lot of mistrust and need for protection. So in terms of, you know, culture, I have the culture that I grew up with, with my family, and as I was mentioning, like integrating herbs into our diet, into food and into tea. But in terms of like formal ceremony, that’s something that I have learned, with the supportive community and new family that I’ve learned in retracing my ancestral roots. And I won’t go into specifics about that because I wanna respect the sacredness of, of what that is. But the plants are essential to all of it. And from those teachings, I, I think they definitely inform a lot of the ways that, that I see the plants and, and how yeah, how powerful they are and, and how much, how much of a role they play in supporting us in our opening, to the Earth and our opening to being able to listen more deeply, and to listen to, yeah, what, what they’re saying or, or what other messages are are coming in.

[37:30] Nicole: How, in your, in your experience, how do you think these practices, especially the ones that are specific to, to your culture and what you’re, what you’re learning about the history with that, how do you, how do you see it having changed through modern times?

[37:47] Antonia: Hmm. Um, I think specific to the ceremonies that, that I’ve been invited to participate in, they really haven’t, to my understanding, haven’t changed so much. And I think that’s why, it’s so protected because it, it is, it’s so symbolic of resistance and resilience that no matter, like all the violence and colonization and uprooting that has happened, and this is colonization everywhere. Like the fact that there are ceremonies that still exist, that are time and memorial, like, that’s so incredibly powerful. And, yeah, it, it’s, it’s such a deep reminder of like what is real, like actually real, how, how foundational to all cultures like giving offerings to the Earth is, to support our harvest, to support cultivation, to support like things being in balance. So yeah, I, I, in, in the different ceremonies that I’ve gotten to, to be a part of, I think that’s one of the really, yeah, just powerful pieces. It’s like the integrity and the connection that it holds, like without the colonial, capitalist interruption. And of course now, like the word ceremony means so many things, and it is very capitalist [laughs] in different, in different pockets. But ceremony in the sense of like, when it’s coming from a real, like heart-centered, humble place.

[40:35] Nicole: Connected to that, how do you see the connection between healing and energy and healing and spirit?

[40:42] Antonia: Hmm. It’s everything [laughs], uh, spirit. Well, these are deep, deep questions. I, for me, I feel like spirit energy is in everything. It’s in this computer, it’s in this mug, it’s in the water. Everything, whether it’s, as I said, like this computer, we might look at this and say like, this isn’t nature. And sure it’s, doesn’t look like it, but it’s, it is still coming from nature. Just been distorted and manufactured and synthesized into all these different forms that are unrecognizable to, you know, the minerals and the crystals that are in here. But it all has an energy and something that I’ve learned from different elders is like that piece of the, an anim, uh, animistic relationship to all things. And how I, because of that, how important it is to take care and respect each thing. And that’s been a really deep lesson of like, it, it’s helped me live my life in like a much more organized way, in a much more aware and sacred way where, you know, everything has, has its place. Everything. it needs to be treated with care and respect because of the energy that exists in, in those things. And, and as I’m saying that, I’m like, huh, I, it almost feels like if we did all have more of that relationship to the material, then maybe we’d be consuming so much less because it would be the care in like where these things are coming from and how they’re made, and like, how, you know, just ’cause this might have a little crack, I’m not just gonna throw it away. Like, we’re in such a, like, mass consumerist time that there’s very little respect for the material. It’s like, oh, I could just go buy this other thing. Then being like, oh, it all has this story and it all, it’s all coming from somewhere. And like, what is all the energy, the human labor, the extraction that, all the externalities that went into having this cup here, this computer. So yeah. Energy, healing, I think, you know, mindset, mind frame is so important. And like the intention that we’re putting into the medicine that we’re making, is so important because that energy is going to influence. And again, I think that’s why it’s so important if we can, to build relationships with the plants when they’re living. And when we’re going to harvest to like, like be really in like a clear and calm place and be aware of our energy. ’cause if we go and we’re all angry and upset, like, I have experience, you can get hurt, you can cut yourself, you’re gonna cut a plant that you didn’t mean to cut, and maybe it was like the only plant that you spent so much time tending to, and like, you went too fast and you killed the plant. And just different lessons like that come through. And just in everything, like everything, the, when we start moving too fast, like things start to break and things start just like falling apart And, so being aware of our energy, it’s like, how are, how is our energy matching another person, like a space?

[45:35] Nicole: Mm-Hmm. We are coming close to the end of the interview. I have just a few more questions. Another deep one. Do you feel that we are in danger of losing our connection to these types of healing practices and traditions? Or is this knowledge still being well preserved and passed down in your eyes?

[46:00] Antonia: I think it’s still being passed down. And I think more and more people are interested in receiving, this knowledge. And I also at the same time hear elders and see, I, I see the loss, like I see the end of a lineage because that’s like, especially here, a lot of people wanna go to the city, or, I mean, I think this is everywhere. Like, people are going to the city, they’re looking for work. Healing practices are not necessarily like sustaining livelihood or even like just farming, for example. So I think it is, I think globally, like there is so much knowledge being lost, and especially with the rise of AI. And like, I, I was sometimes just so confused. I’m like, there’s so many parallel threads of movement happening at the same time. Like, there’s people over here trying to like, that are still living as they have lived forever in many parts of the world. Like, they’re still tending to the land, they’re still living off the land. And then there’s people, another part of the world that are completely disconnected that everything is technology. And it’s like, who is driving the future? It’s like the technology. And that’s, that definitely makes me nervous because this drive that believes like, the further that we get disconnected from the Earth the more, I don’t know what it is, it’s like the more advanced in progress, progress we’ll be, and like colonizing space. And what’s happening in so many different parts of the world, and like bio regions or like the Amazon, it’s, it’s, well, colonization is very much happening there, but it’s like, it’s a, genocide and maybe it’s slower, but it, that’s what’s happening, you know? And that’s gonna, that’s impacts the whole world. And like, that’s the disconnect that so many people have to the states, like capitalism has brought globalization in economic terms, but we still feel, so I think the mindset is still so separated and disconnected from like, what happens in this part of the world is gonna impact somewhere else. And so yeah, there’s definitely, I think it’s the both and of, like, there’s a lot of people that are interested in learning and keeping traditions and fighting to preserve, their culture and then like against these powers and forces. And then there’s like so much money and power, behind initiatives and world visions that are not centered on the Earth and like people and life. So yeah, I think we all need to, we all need to learn as much as we can from our elders. And I always tell friends who are lucky to have grandparents that are still alive, like to ask them as many questions because the elders right now, even like the people that are, I mean, my dad is 80, so he is also my elder. They are the living memory of a time that is so different from the time that many of the youth, I guess in the like quote first world or like, you know, are witnessing time before cell phones, before computers, before all this technology that memory is so important to like, how did people live before and be in community together and like values that are getting lost around family and like communal, you know, like, what is community like? We hear that all the time but, how are we really supporting each other? And it’s not, not a monolith, like there’s so many places that continue to, to be in these practices. But I think globally we, we need to be in, in, in that practice of learning as much as we can from, from our elders. Yeah.

[51:58] Nicole: And I do know that you do very important work of helping to preserve and pass down some of this knowledge every day. Why is it so important to you to, to push that work, to preserve and, and pass down this herbal and, and ancestral knowledge?

[52:18] Antonia: I’ve been thinking a lot about that. ’cause I think sometimes when you’re in in the work, you’re like in it. And so lately I’m like, wait, so why, [laughs] what, what is the purpose? And it, I’ve been touching back into my younger self and the why of that. As I, I mentioned earlier in our conversation, I think part of the why was like when shit hits the fan we’re gonna be in a really rough spot, especially folks living in urban environments because we don’t know how to grow our own food. We don’t know, there’s almost this like, ew like towards nature, right? Towards the plants. And so it was almost this like desperate feeling of like, we need to know these skills and particularly low income folks who can’t just leave the city and how are we gonna be equipped to know to, to survive? So that was really the urgency that I had then, like survival. And I think there still is that, but recognizing it’s all happening right now, Along with the recognition that our connection to these skills of survival is actually very close in our lineage. You know, a grandparent or even that same mother that just immigrated from Mexico, like was a, in her village, you know, but through assimilation or being like, oh, that’s not important anymore and that’s getting erased. And so the work is really, it, it’s, it carries many, it’s happening in many different ways, but when it’s more like engaged in person with the community, it’s really about the reminder that this is important and like working with youth, reminding them that it’s important, it’s cool, that it’s part of understanding who they are and respecting all the sacrifice that their ancestors went through to be here. That they’re here because of the knowledge that their ancestors had for the land and the plants. And I think it’s easier I found in immigrant like BIPOC communities to recognize that and be like, right, yeah, my, my, you know, my grandma talks to the plants and she has all these plants in her apartment, and like, there’s something that happens and shifts there that brings people so much, I don’t know, sense of, of connection and like pride. And then in our knowledge shares that’s open to everyone. It’s a continuation of that, where what’s different is, it’s not just me teaching, it’s I’m inviting people from many different walks of life, like scholars, academics, to herbalist, land tenders, researchers who are really passionate about a specific, plant or study or have gone, you know, like my friend Gowri, who’s from, from India, who has just devoted the last like 15 years of her life to snakes, you know, to share about snakes from her lineage. So finding people who I, who myself and the Herben Cura team see as like, experts and not just from like the academic perspective of expert in that, in that that topic. And through that, giving a lens into history, into relationship. So for example, yesterday we had a knowledge share on olives and the history of Palestine through an indigenous framework, and how maybe many people, you know, use olive oil for cooking and, and then that’s that, right? But we don’t ask like, what is the history of olive oil beyond the bottle? Like, what is the olive tree? What is the plant behind the commodity? Um, [one] second. And so in, in this example, learning about how the olive tree in relationship to Palestinian people and Palestinian people in relationship to the olive tree has been this like co-evolution, in deep interspecies relationship of love, of caring for the wellness of the olive and how the olive tree has also cared for the people and how the olive is infused into every part of Palestinian life and culture and ceremony, and how the olive harvest is such an important way. And ceremony, bringing people together like livelihood is surrounded by the olive. And also how the olive tree is a symbol of resistance and resilience for Palestinian people. I think it’s really, for me, it’s so interesting to see the ways that like everything has to, so everything has to do with, with plants, the ways that plants have been weaponized. The, for example, ways that Israel burns the olive trees, as a way of taking people’s land, as a way of trying to debilitate Palestinian people and Palestinian lifeways. And then planting trees like pine or cyprus that deplete the soil and use up way too much water. So it’s so interesting that contrast of like how then the pine and the cyprus, right, are weaponized like the pine, the cyprus, like in the respective places. Like they’re beautiful trees, they’re, you know, have their medicine, but when they take, get taken out of context, like they’re literally used as a weapon. And so that’s an example of a knowledge share where we want to have a story told through the voice of someone who is from that lineage, has a relationship to that plant, and can give kind of a scope of the complexity, and multi multiple stories and threads,behind a plant. And to give, to give more context behind the olive oil so that like next time we’re like pouring olive oil or we’re buying olive oil, we’ll be like, hmm, where am I buying this olive oil from? Who am I supporting? And, and not just consumer politics, but more like how is learning these stories of plants and learning about these plants beyond them being commodities, does that transform our understanding of history and colonization and the way that we’re going to, you know, shift the way that we’re living right now. And like the goal being like we all need to be organizing. We all need to be kind of shifting the way that we’re in relationship to the, our consumerism. And yeah, just so, so many things that are causing, injustice in the world. So yeah, that’s, that’s some of the work that we’re doing. And, I’ve yet to see necessarily or like know how to take the, an like, analytics of how this is impacting or, or changing, but I think like especially yesterday, it really felt important, especially right now as Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza, to bring a level of perspective towards the life and love of the land in Palestine, to remind people of like, what is so beautiful of this land and why people have been fighting, you know, for almost a century now. And so that feels really important to offer different story, so that people, so that we don’t forget because I think colonization this, like, this is a modern day example of colonization, of erasure. It’s like as we erase the plants and flatten the land, like it’s a formula for making people forget who they are. And the moment that we forget who we are, it’s like then we get to where we are now. Like we we’re dependent on a, on a state, a police state, like we don’t know, how to be autonomous and we forget how to be in relationship to one another. So I think that’s, that’s a big piece of it is like, as we remember, how do we gain a level of, of autonomy and sovereignty back.

[1:04:45] Nicole: Thanks for sharing all of that. I can see that you’re very passionate about the work, this work that you do. And I, I know the, the very little I know about your work and the more I know now that we’ve had this conversation, I know it’s very important and I know that you are doing that work to preserve and to share. Can you, last question is just a little fun one. I would love to know if you have a particular plant that you’ve really been feeling connected with lately,learning about using, not necessarily a favorite because it’s, that’s a hard thing to define, but something actually a plant you feel really connected to right now.

[1:05:26] Antonia: Yeah, I would say, well right now I’m drinking boldo, which is a native plant from these lands and cedron, lemon verbena. So I’ll share about cedron. This is a plant that I’ve been, I, I grew up with, but I’ve gotten more curious about because it’s native to these regions and like Chile, Peru, Argentina. And I’ve been like researching right now the, some of where this, this plant has ended up in the world. And it has ended up in Palestine and is actually like an important plant in Swana region, lemon verbena. And that’s been really just beautiful to think about the ways that plants that have been like sacred and important to a certain part of the world have then found their way in another part of the world and have also become an important, plant in, you know, daily tea ritual. But yeah, I love, I love lemon verbena so much. The flavor of it, the way it makes me feel. And it also makes me feel really connected to my parents ’cause they have several lemon verbena plants and they love it, that they love cedron so much. So it’s usually like the go-to herb after dinner. It’s like, what, what tea do you want? And it’s usually, cedron. So I’m, I’m really excited to keep learning more about the history and like ethno botanical relationship of cedron.

[1:07:28] Nicole: Thank you so much for sharing today. Is there anything that you want to touch on? Any last words that you wanna share with us in the interview before we go?

[1:07:41] Antonia: No, I think I, I feel, I feel complete. I mean, I, I hope if folks are watching this, that,yeah, they, they get excited about the Herban Cura work and join us in some online classes or in-person offerings. And always excited to know about other work that’s happening and finding ways to collaborate. Yeah,

[1:08:11] Nicole: I would love to have Raíces and Herban Cura do a, a collaboration together for sure. Beyond the interview.

[1:08: 17] Antonia: Yes.

[1:08:17] Nicole: Maybe one day workshops together,

[1:08:19] Antonia: Let’s do it.

[1:08:20] Nicole: You that come out to our place and we’ll definitely come and visit you in Washington Heights.

[1:08:26] Antonia: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Let’s, let’s make that happen this summer.

[1:08:31] Nicole: Let’s do it. Great. Thank you so much.

[1:08:34] Antonia: Thank you.