Ancestral Herbal Narratives

[00:10] Nicole Wines: So, welcome. My name is Nicole Wines with Raíces Cultural Center, and we are having oral history interview today as part of our Ancestral Herbal Narratives collection. Can you please introduce yourself and your name, where you were born, and where you are now?

[00:29] Dena Corbin: Yes. My name is Dena Corbin. I was born in Princeton, New Jersey. I was, I grew up in Lawrence Township in a little town in Mercer County. I now call Newark, New Jersey, my home. So that’s where I am now. This is where I live in Newark.

[00:53] Nicole: Right. Start with this big question. Be an overarching question before I zoom into your story.

[00:59] Dena: Okay.

[1:00] Nicole: What does the word healing mean to you?

[1:02] Dena: Healing.

[1:03] Nicole: Mm-Hmm.

[1:04] Connection. The word healing for me is about connecting to your needs, because healing, oftentimes people think of healing as someone who is sick. Right. And it doesn’t always have to be a sickness. It can be a healing from anything. Anything. How do you recover and in order to recover? When I think of healing, I think of also recover. And I also think of, like I said before, the word connections. So healing. Healing to me is really about moving to another phase, another, situation, another activity, another, place and space that you wanna be in. It’s always about moving, healing isn’t just something that happens at this one time thing. It’s ongoing. It’s, it’s, it’s not like de it’s not really like a destination. Healing to me is like a journey, because life gives you those things that you have to always work constantly, you know, recover from. So healing for me is really a connection. And when you’re connected to something that’s bigger and better than who you are, right? When you’re really connected to environment, when you’re connected to spaces and places that you find comfort in, then your healing never ends. It’s, it’s always, you know, a journey.

[2:41] Nicole: Thank you for sharing. That’s really beautiful.

[2:43] Dena: You’re welcome.

[2:43] Nicole: Definition of healing. I can connect to that.

[2:49] Dena: Yeah.

[2:50] Nicole: Yeah.

[2:50] Dena: It, it’s, it’s a process. You know, and like I said, it doesn’t always have to mean that you’re sick. That’s the first thing that comes to the mind of most people. Oh, you, you’re healing. You have to heal from a sickness and just life in general, the things that we go through, it, it, it requires a, a mindset of moving forward and continuing a process. So, yeah.

[3:25] Nicole: In your lifetime what connection have you had to herbs and herbal healing traditions?

[3:33] Dena: That’s interesting. I’ve been thinking like as far back as I can remember, the way I grew up, right in Mercer County, this rural, environment. I remember my mom forging, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t remember it being called that. She, that’s not what, you know, she called it. But I remember my mom going out and picking, you know, things from our yard to bring back in to, you know, help with whatever imbalances our family was going through. My nephews and nieces were going through. So it, it goes back to my mom, really. And then my dad was a farmer, so I, you know, I stayed under his, you know, tutelage. Right. So, it goes back as far back as I can remember, you know, that idea. And not even knowing then exactly kinda what it was until I started having my own children. And then my sisters and brothers getting together, you know, us talking about, you know, I remember when mommy did da, da, da, you know, and I remember, you know, going out and picking. And so, yeah. That, that, it started way back then.

[5:00] Nicole: Is there any, one memory that kind of stands out to you from, from your family experience?

[5:06] Dena: I, I remember I had a, a nephew who had really, really bad respiratory imbalances. Right. And my mom would make a, a, she would put, she would get herb, I don’t know what herbs they were exactly, but I know onion was a big part of it. And garlic. And it may have been like peppermint or rosemary. ‘Cause we had that growing wild in our yard. And she would put it in a jar and, and with, with some sweetener and maybe like a sugar or brown sugar and bring it in and just sit it on the counter and let it, you know, ferment. And then after a while, she would give that to him. And it really helped with the imbalances and just to make stuff taste different or a little, you know, a little different flavor. You know, peppermint was a big herb that my mom used. Rosemary was another one that my mother used a lot of. Like, her rosemary potatoes were, you know, the best. And I don’t really remember a whole lot of seasonings, you know, that were just kind of purchased and used in the house. My mother kind of went out and picked her herbs. She grew a lot of herbs.

[6:38] Nicole: That’s interesting. A few participants in this series have talked about food, herbs in cooking.

[6:45] Dena: Yeah.

[6:45] Nicole: And, and food.

[6:46] Dena: Yeah.

[6:47] Nicole: And sometimes I think, I think people who are herbal practitioners, they understand that they’re getting the healing qualities when, when it’s in the food. And I think that’s a great way that people can add that in their everyday life.

[7:03] Dena: And in tea as well. You know, tea as well, like a rosemary tea. And, and that’s, that’s the other part. I took a, a class this summer ’cause you, you, you never stop learning. Right. My, my father always told me that you all, you continue to learn. And, you know, some of the herbs that we use for those medicinal values, you can also, you know, use them just as a tea, like a rosemary or a peppermint, you know, or, or basil or an oregano. You know, you can still take those things in as you combine them for that medicinal value.

But just to sit back and have a nice cup of basil tea, there’s nothing wrong with that, you know? So, yeah. Medicinal value.

[7:51] Nicole: Do you learn from your parents about, about herbs and their plants and their healing qualities?

[7:57] Dena: I did. Yes, I did. I, I believe a lot of what I do today and my connection to the environment and the medicinal value that I see, not just in herbs, but also essential oils, comes from my upbringing and watching my mom and my dad forge, you know, and my dad grow food. And my mom, you know, used dried herbs. And rarely, my mom didn’t. Well, I, I don’t know if it was because it was, they just wasn’t out then, but a lot of times it wasn’t, you know, how you can get bottles of herb now everything is all mixed together? It was the rosemary here, the lemon, the lime, I mean the peppermint or the oregano or the thyme. It was in separate containers, and she did the combination, you know. So that’s why a lot of times when I do grow herbs, I don’t, sometimes I like to keep them separate.There are times when I’d like to make, make, you know, like a nice spring herbal blend. But a lot of times my herbs are kept separate, and then I choose to combine them with, you know, different foods that you might wanna cook salads or meat or fish or, you know, potatoes or things like that. So yeah, I learned it from my parents.

[9:21] Nicole: Do you know who taught them where they learned it from?

[9:25] Dena: Probably their parents, because my, my family grew up in the south, you know, so I could imagine that a lot of what my mother learned, she learned from her mother. What my father learned, she, he learned from his childhood, you know, his, his environment, because he, he was a farmer. He grew up in, in, you know, a area where he farmed when he was growing up. And my mom as well. So, not so much farming, but I’m sure that a lot of what she learned, she learned through her upbringing and the environment that she was, was in as a child.

[10:07] Nicole: So it’s not formal training, it’s through family connection and really community practice within?

[10:13] Dena: Right, right. I don’t, no, I don’t, I don’t think my mom went to, herb school. I don’t think my mom went to herb school. You know, I don’t think my dad went to culinary. Right. You know, I think it’s just something that is ingrained in us, you know, as a people. It’s just who we are, you know? We are farmers, we are gardeners, we are growers. And it’s something that is just passed down, you know, passed down. And a lot of it is not even written. You know, that’s the other piece. You know, I’m, I’m thinking about that. I’m thinking about putting some recipes together or some, you know, techniques together for my children and for my grandchildren, because I do have some of my mom’s recipes though. But nothing like herbal recipes or, you know, anything like that. I have some of her food recipes that she added herbs to, but none of what I learned and saw her go out and forge for it’s all in my head. Right. So now it’s, it’s, and coming upon me now to really kind of put some of those things on paper so that my children can, and my grandchildren can have those recipes, so to speak. Right.

[11:39] Nicole: And, and you’re passing it on to them just like your family passed it on.

[11:42] Dena: Yeah.

[11:43] Nicole: Yeah.

[11:44] Dena: Yeah.

[11:44] Nicole: Do you practice any herbal traditions now? Do you consider yourself an herbalist? You, you mentioned growing herbs. Would you consider yourself an herbal healer? There’s lots of different areas of working with herbs.

[12:00] Dena: I know. I know. I don’t know. I really don’t. I know about before the pandemic, two years before the pandemic, I grew a lot of herbs. And I did not go to the supermarket and buy herbs at all for two years. I, I grew herbs, dried them myself, and cook with them and use them for medicinal. Like, I don’t, I don’t, I would not consider myself an herbalist. I would, I don’t know. I consider myself a connector. I like to connect people to those healing modalities that I’ve experienced and I find to be beneficial. And herbs just happened to be one of them. Right. Understanding the seasons happens to be another. Knowing what season you are understanding the elements, what element are you? Right. Understanding a lot of, a lot of the natural cycles that happen in nature will allow you to become a better individual. You know, we were, I was talking to someone not long ago, and we were talking about eating in season Right. When I was growing up, and strawberries are my favorite fruit, I couldn’t get strawberries in December. I remember coming home from college and my mom having this big bowl of strawberries sitting on the table for me during spring break. Right. And nobody could touch ’em until Dena came home, right? So it was, it’s those kind of things that I like to remind people of is those, those connections. Right. There’s a reason why beets and potatoes and, are grown in the, in the fall. Right. As opposed to being grown. And, and I mean, you can, you can grow them and you can harvest them, but those are cold weather crops. Right. So there’s a reason for that, you know, that. And when you connect to that, then it makes for, I think it makes for a better understanding of who you are and what you’re called to do. So, no, I don’t consider myself an herbalist. Do I, do I teach herbs? Do I, grow herbs? Yes, absolutely. But I consider myself a connector.

[14:33] Nicole: That’s really beautiful, because that goes back to your, your definition of healing. So you do, you work very closely with that concept of healing?

[14:42] Dena: Yes.

[14:43] Nicole: And you mentioned a few, a few things about nature and elements. What other healing traditions do you practice? Do you study? Do you work with?

[14:53] Dena: Mindfulness. Mindfulness is, it’s so powerful when you, and it’s, it’s a lot. I don’t wanna say it’s easier said than done, but it allows you to, for me, it allows me to just be in the moment of some things. So not to be so crowded with other things that are outside that happened yesterday, that’s gonna happen tomorrow. If I can just, you know, oftentimes if I can just put myself in a particular situation, and in this particular moment, it allows me to be more connected. It allows for more positivity to come my way instead of worrying about really what I can’t, can’t control. Because it hasn’t even happened yet. So why, why worry about it? A lot of what I believe and what I practice and what I teach people is so simple. I think the reason why it’s not practiced, or it’s not fully understood, is that it is so simple. And because we’re so used to living so difficult sometimes that the simplicity has alluded us. It’s like nothing is simple anymore. Everything has to be a challenge. Everything has to be hard. And that’s not, that’s not true. You think about, you know, when, when I think about the simplistic life I lived as a child, you know, you know, in the sixties, seventies, you know, growing up in that era, it was just simple. You know, picking cherries off the tree, running outside, you know, those connecting to nature, just staying outside and playing all day long. Right? Those are the things that I think will bring about a easier person. You know, a more relaxed and not so stressed out person. You can’t deny the connection that you have when you are in nature. You can’t deny the easy digestion when you eat more of a green based diet. Right. A green food based diet. Right. You, you, it is just, there are things that you just can’t deny. And because those things are so simple, people kind of get away from them. So yes, I do, I do practice mindfulness. I talk to people about, you know, yoga. I talk to people about understanding your, your character, your character strength. You know, being able to control and get an understanding of your emotional intelligence. Being able to, to know, you know, notice name and navigate through your intelligence. Right. When, when you find yourself upset, what do you do? Right? What do you do? For me, it’s a lot of that mindfulness, it’s gardening, it’s growing. Right. And for me, herbs are very easy to grow. That’s why I love growing them. And it doesn’t take a whole bunch of work to do them. Right. Drying them is up fun. There’s so many different ways to dry herbs. Right. And you can pinch off of them and eat them. I like eating herbs. You know, I, I love the taste of rosemary uncooked. Right. Parsley is one of my favorites. I love growing crowley parsley because it attack, it attracts the black swallowtail butterfly. Right. So, you know, it’s, it’s those kinds of things that I like to connect people with. I like to remind people that those simplistic ways of life that we had as children, and not all children, but majority of us, you know, that are in our fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, that that was the simplistic kind of life that we had. And to get back to that will make us a better, a better society, better individuals, better people, better communicators. So it’s important to me.

[19:17] Nicole: I understand. Can you talk a little bit about the connection of you, your culture and your cultural background to these healing modalities?

[19:29] Dena: My cultural background? That was a question that I talked with my sister, one of my sisters about. And when I think of my, my cultural background and my connection to, you know, this whole topic of herbs, I think about family. I know that for, for me, when, when I was growing up, family was our culture. It was, we always had family around us. We had joy. Joy was our culture. Joy was our mainstay, our our family, my, my mother, my father, my, my aunts, my uncles. They made sure that we stayed connected the as cousins. So our, it, it wasn’t, it was just a minute when we got together, you know, and we looked up and our cousins from Virginia were here, or our cousins from New York were here. So, when, when, when you talk about culture, when I think of culture in my family, in growing up, it was really about our parents. And like I said, my uncles and my aunts teaching us and instilling in us the importance of family, right? And what traditions we had within that family was food. Everybody cooked, you know, everybody participated. It was, like I said, joy. It was a lot of, you know, singing and dancing and just, just really coming together for the purpose of knowing and loving and caring for each other. That was something that was just so ingrained in us. And now that we are adults, we still have those same connections and we are doing some of those same things, bringing our families together. Crafts, entertaining was another, you know, one of the things that we did, we would come together and we would sing, you know, the, the songs of the Motown, you know, and do different dances. And we would, you know, play different games, educational games, and just really, really coming together for the purpose of staying connected, staying connected. So when you talk about when you talk, when I talk, when I think of culture and my family line of Corbin-Marshalls, it, it, it has a lot to do with just being in the company of each other and really expanding that into family and friends. ‘Cause our house was the house that a lot of people in the neighborhood came and, and had fun and stayed. ‘Cause we were already nine, nine of us. Right. And then, you know, my brothers and sisters that I really didn’t know before, before I was born that had passed, in total was like 13 of us. So our house was really the house. You know, you, you say you have, there’s nine. What’s gonna be be a difference when you bring in two more? Right? So, our house was the house where people could come and stay and rest. Right? There were people who lived in the neighborhood who would come in and live, lived in our house. I remember when my mom passed, you know, my father had changed the house around, and people came by and it was like, oh, I remember when the kitchen used to be here. I remember when something used to be here. So the culture of our family was, the culture was, was family. It was family. It was about friendship. It was about connecting. It was about really being kind and generous and open and allowing and treating people the way you wanted to be treated. That’s, that’s one of the things that I remember my mom and dad always saying to me, you know, and being kind to everybody. Kindness was the fabric that kind of wove through the Corbin family and being able to have those connections with family and friends. Even now today, like, we are still a close knit community. When somebody passes in Lawrence Township, it’s like everybody goes back. You know, we had one church, we had really one high school, one elementary school, you know, a couple elementary schools. But it was, it was really, when I think of culture, and for me and my family, it was really about family connection and, and staying connected and always knowing that no matter what happens, at the end of the day, we’re still family. Yeah.

[24:47] Nicole: You, you mentioned that this is also the way your, you and your brothers and sisters are carrying it forward with the current generation. Is there anything that,

[24:56] Dena: Yes.

[24:56] Nicole: that you see has changed or evolved from, from when you were growing up in, in terms of that?

[25:04] Dena: I’m sorry, can you say that again?

[25:06] Nicole: Is there anything that you feel has changed or evolved in terms of, of, of that, those family practices? In the current generation, with the current generation?

[25:18] Dena: I feel that the current generations, like my, my sister’s children, my brother’s children, we are, there’s that circle, right? We’re, we’re still all connected. My, like, I don’t have many first cousins left, right? So my first cousins really we’re still like, connected and my, my nieces and my great nieces. But when you go beyond that, it’s, there’s some of my like great-great-great nieces that I haven’t met yet. And that, that is something that I, we’re working on. We’re really working on that. I think a lot of it has to do now with, you know, just life being so full. I don’t like to say busy ’cause you can really be busy doing absolutely nothing. But life has become so full. And the, the people who used to do those things, a lot of them are no longer here. So it’s a matter of who’s going to take ownership, who’s going to take responsibility for that. And not enough people have, perhaps have stepped up to do that. I am one that does that. So my goal this, this year is to see a lot of my great, great nieces and nephews that I haven’t seen to visit my cousins that I haven’t seen in a very long time. Because that is the foundation. And once you have a foundation, it never really goes away. Somebody just has to come and start building, and the, the building is already there. The foundation is already there. Now you just have to start putting things on top, and it makes it a lot easier. So it’s always, it’s a matter of a phone call. It’s a matter of a trip. It’s a matter of, okay, I’m coming. You come in, let’s, let’s get together. So it’s really that, it really has to do with that planning. And young people are, are, are full. Their lives are full. You know, they have their own agenda, right? And a lot of times, it’s not that they don’t want to, but I can’t imagine being a young person now with all of the distractions and interactions that they are going through, you know, that they have to contend with because they, they’re contending with, like, when I was growing up, it was, you know, you, your competition was your neighborhood, you know, or even your state or your city. Now this is a worldview, you know? So they have a lot more that they have to contend with. And I don’t think my great nieces and great-great nieces and nephews don’t want to do these things. It’s just that their plate is full and they’re not, they may lack some initiative or direction in how to make that happen. Because, you know, the internet and, and, and this whole social media, it has diminished our ability to communicate with each other. Even family. Even family. Like, it’s easier for me, well, not for me. I, I love talking on the telephone, but it’s, it’s easier to text a whole conversation, right? Or to do a, you know, let’s do a zoom, right? But there, there’s that, that connection that, that’s lost when you don’t have that in-person, I wanna hug you, I wanna talk to you, I want to hear your voice kind of situation that goes on.

[29:04] Nicole: Mm-Hmm. That said, do you feel like we’re in danger of losing, uh, some of these healing practices and the knowledge around them? Or do you think that there are other ways that they’re being preserved and passed down?

[29:17] Dena: I think a little bit of, of both. See, because people want instant, right? Because of the world that we’re living in right now, instant gratification is the mainstay. And I, through my experience in working with herbs, essential oils, it’s not a quick fix. It’s a consistency that needs to take place. And a lot of times people aren’t willing to do that. They’re just not willing to do that. So we don’t begin to teach people, first of all, how to connect. And when I say connect, I’m talking about the natural environment in which we live, eat, sleep, and breathe. You know? And consciously, we kind of just take it for granted, but subconsciously we’re taking in more than we know. And then all of a sudden it comes to the conscious. It’s like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Right? So, I think we’re losing a lot of the, the simplicity of what herbs and nature and that connection can do, because people want that instant gratification. And because not enough people are talking about it and educating people about it, it is getting lost. And if you’re not invited to the table, right, if you’re not invited to these social, you know, these, these events that are happening, that are talking about some of the things that you and I know, work, make your own table, set your own stage, you know, hold your own workshops, because these things that we know work, they have to get out. And if, and if they’re not getting out, then, then it, it’s not going to happen. So it, so the answer to your question is, it’s a little bit of both. And it’s going to be more on the other side of it being lost if people don’t begin to talk about it, and not just talk about it, but write it down that I have a book that I have wrote some, some things in, and I noticed when I went back to look, because I, I’ve been doing some cleaning up, straightening up, and that’s a sidebar. But that cleaning thing and being neat, and that, that’s a, that’s overrated, though. I can’t find nothing now. But I noticed that one of the books, it has a lot of cursive writing in it, right? They took cursive writing outta the schools. Some kids can’t even read cursive writing. So now I have to teach my grandchildren how to write in cursive, because a lot of what’s in that book were like little recipes that I had when I did my essential oils. When I used to do blending. People would call me up, I have X, Y, and Z going on. I need this, this, this. And I would be able to do a blend. And cursive writing is faster. For me, it’s much faster. So that whole, a lot of that stuff in that book is all in cursive writing. Some of the herbs that I, were growing and, you know, using, it’s, it’s all in cursive writing. So I have to teach my grandchildren, because they’re not gonna learn it in school. How to, how to write in cursive, and then how to read in cursive, right? So if we, if we don’t talk about it, if we don’t teach it, then yes, it, it, it, it’s, it’s a dying, it’s a dying situation where it, it’s just not going to be thought of or practiced, or used or valued. Not, not real, but they may use it, but they don’t, they won’t see the value in it, because this is all we had at one time. This is all we had. Right? So, to go back to that would be that simplicity, that simple way of life that I talked to you about, that people are just so, they just shy away from it. Because simplicity is easy and, and people are not, they’re not used to ease.

[33:38] Nicole: That’s true. It takes some time.

[33:40] Dena: Yeah.

[33:41] Nicole: You’re not used to it to get, to get used to it. For sure. And, and that, sorry, go ahead.

[33:48] Dena: No, I was saying, and if you’re toxic, you know, it’s gonna take even more time. If you’re eating a lot of junk, you know, junk stuff, and you know it’s gonna take even more time for your body to absorb this new nutritional healing modality that you are, you’re on, it’s almost like a detox. It’s, it’s a, it’s a detox. It’s a cleanse. A lot of the herbs, you know, there’s specific herbs for, you know, cleansing. And they’re, and people think, oh, when you’re on a cleanse, you know, you have to, you gotta stay, you know, fast into the, you gotta stay in a bathroom and all that kind of stuff. No, a cleanse is, is to slow down your digestive system. It really is to slow down your, your whole body system so that when, when you reintroduce food, no matter what type of food you eat, your body absorbs the nutritional value that much better. A lot of times we’re not getting full nutritional value because we’re so toxic. And there are herbs that you can take every day, you know, that will help you absorb the nutritional value of the food that you eat. So…

[35:16] Nicole: So we, we talked a little bit about the physical. Can you talk a little bit about, energy, herbs, healing and energy, how they connect?

[35:26] Dena:
Healing?

[35:27] Nicole: Mm-Hmm.

[35:27] Dena: Healing and energy. How do they connect? Well, remember, I, we talked about the healing. Healing is a journey. It’s a process. It’s not just because you’re sick, right? Everything has a energy or a vibration to it. So when you take that healing piece, and then you take the energy piece, and you kind of have this, this, you have this desire to become or do something that is going to benefit you in that healing. For example, I don’t wanna give an example. Ask me the question again. Ask the question again. It has to sink in. So you’re asking me, how is healing and energy connected?

[36:22] Nicole: In your practice in the way that you see it? Yes, Exactly.

[36:26] How is healing and energy connected in my practice? Okay. So, so one of the things, like I said, I, I like to connect people. Like I consider myself a connector.So what I do is I try to get people to understand that once you kind of know who you are, like that inner person of who you are, like knowing your character strengths, knowing your mindset, knowing the season that you best thrive in, knowing the element that you’re most attracted to, even your colors, knowing all of those things about who you are will put you in a better place, will allow you to become a better individual, not only for yourself, but for the people that you are called to serve and support. So once you know those things, or you, and it’s, it’s a journey. It’s not something that just happens overnight. You, you learn these things every day. These are things that are happening every day, right? So once you have an understanding of who you are, you’re better able to sustain a lot of what is happening in, in society and with people now, it’s, it’s fake. It’s, it’s artificial. There’s no substance, there’s no sustainability, right? And if you don’t have sustainability, then you are not going to be able to continue to function in the places and spaces that you need to function in. You’re not going to be able to show up, not only for yourself, but for the people that you’re called to serve. So once you have that kind of, you are working on your inner self and who you are, then your energy is completely different. Your energy is completely different because it’s not stagnant. It’s not all over the place. It’s more harmonious because you’re in harmony with nature. You’re in harmony with what moves you, right? You’re in harmony with what brings you joy. I love water. I don’t really like the beach, ’cause I don’t really like the sand, but I love water. So I know that when I get into a place where I don’t really like to be, and I’m mentally I’m not good, you know, I’ll go and wash me some dishes, you know, because of the water. I’ll go and sit by a Weequahic Park because they have that lake out there. You know what I’m saying? So those are the things that allow the energy to flow, because when you are not working in your best self and things are coming at you, the negative energy will block, you’re blocking your blessings, and then you think, oh, well, I’m not getting this. I’m not having this, this is not working out for me. That’s because you’re not whole inside. Once you know the element that you thrive in that water, fire, right? Once you know those elements, like I, like I said, I like water. My favorite season is the fall. There’s a whole characteristic that comes with the fall that letting go, right? That harvest, you’ve worked all summer long, you know, that harvest, that letting go, that really kind of settling in. That’s what I like to do. So once you know those things, it allows the energy to flow your way. And there’s nothing that will, there’s, there’s, there’s little that will allow you to not get what you are thriving to get. Once you get your, that, all of those things that I mentioned in, in place, energy, energy flows through everything. Everything has a particular vibration. And once those vibrations meet us, right? Then it allows us to thrive. You know, there, I remember when I was taking my horticultural therapy class at New York Botanical Garden. I met a, a whole organization, I have to kind of go back and look for them, but they were tree huggers. I was like, tree huggers. What in the world is a tree hugger? Try it. Try it. And you’ll see what I’m talking about, the energy, right? That that flow, right? And there are people who say, oh, well, I don’t like being in nature. And that may be very true, but you cannot deny the peace that comes with that, right? So when you’re connected to something bigger and better than who you are, you allow the energy that is in, in us and around, and that energy that can come from what is around us to flow. And it makes for a much more content human being. I hope I answered your question.

[41:31] Nicole: Absolutely. Very clearly.

[41:34] Dena: Good. Thank you.

[41:36] Nicole: Yes.Related, what do you feel is the connection between healing and spirit, healing and spirituality?

[41:46] Dena: Well, you know that word, spirituality. I used to run away from that word. And even in my culture, right? Like, you know, you talk, you talk, you say, you know, spiritual spirit, you know, around black folks like that, you know, it’s like, oh yeah, it’s that woo woo kind of thing, right? But what I’ve learned, because I took a course on aromatherapy and spirituality. And spirituality is a connection. It’s a connection to something that is bigger. And for me, it’s Allah. It’s a connection to something, something that is bigger and better than who you are, right? So for me, it’s, it’s my Lord. And in Islam, you know, we call, God Allah, right? So when I, when I look at spirituality, and when I started studying the, the spirit or the connection of plant life, of human life, mostly, mostly plants. Because remember I said I had that, that horticultural therapy. And then I had this, this spiritual aromatherapy piece. When I began to look at those things, it allowed me to see that when you are connected to the natural environment, nature, let’s just say nature. And when I say connected, what does that mean? Okay? So the connection is, you know, in the winter, the, the, the leaves have fallen off the trees. Right? Now, this is just surface connection. That’s just, just go surface for a minute. You know, that spring, the flowers are gonna bloom. You know, that summer you’re gonna have more flowers blooming, and you’re gonna have an abundance of food. And then, you know, that fall, all of what I just said is going to diminish, right? And that happens, that’s been happening since the beginning of time. Now, let’s go deeper to that, to that connection, that, that spiritual piece, right? So here you are, this person, and you’re looking at the, at the winter, and you’re saying that winter looks dead. Everything looks dead. But if you dig deeper and you have a better connection because you’ve studied, and you know what, what, what, what winter really is about it. And think about what I just said earlier. It’s about that inner working. It’s about that inner game, right? Like, what’s happening in the ground right now as we speak, is going to give us the benefit of the next season. What’s the next season? Spring, right? That working, that inner working, what’s happening under the ground is going to give us those flowers that we so much love. It’s going to give us those beautiful leaves on the trees that are gonna give us shade and shelter from the spring and the summer, the summer heat. So then you have the spring, there are flowers that if they don’t get the winter, the cold of the winter, there will be no flowers blooming in the spring. So that’s that deeper connection, that’s that spiritual connection. Those are those connections that Allah has put here without man intervention, right? And then you have the summer, the grass is greener. The sun is hotter, the sun is, it’s he, it’s the sun is always here, right? It’s hotter, right? So then you have that, that, that summer where you have the heat, you have an abundance of fruit, right? You have more flowers. Why? Because of what happened in the winter, what happened in the spring and what happened in the summer. And then come the fall, still going a little bit deeper. All that Allah has put before us to enjoy is now diminishing. Why is that? It’s a cycle. It’s a circle. It’s a cycle. It’s a connection. It happens over and over and over again.
And each season, and I teach, you know, through my coaching programs that I have, each season has a specific characteristic, basically a little bit of what I just mentioned. But when you go deeper and when you can connect to that, it affects you. It, it, it’s who we are, right? Because we have our seasons. We have our moments when we are in full bloom, we in full color, we happy, we excited, we joyful. And then we have our moments where we just wanna be left alone. Don’t bother me. I wanna get under in the bed, put my head under the covers. Don’t bother me. Leave me alone. Right? So once we connect to that in nature, we’re not so different. And it allows us to understand who we are better and our place in this society, right? Because nothing in nature, nothing in nature is by accident. It’s all connected. And once you tap into that, it allows you as an individual to be a better individual. Not just for yourself, but for the people that you are called to serve and support. Because there are people who are relying on, on you to do certain things to be there for them, right? And how can you show, you can’t show up. And sometimes we show up raggedy because we haven’t tapped into those things that Allah has put here for us to study, to look at subconsciously we are. Subconsciously, we’ve taken way more than we do consciously on a daily basis, right? So when we begin to tap into those things, not only does it bring us energy flow, but it brings us a spirituality, a connection to something that is so much higher and better than who we are. That things that happen on a daily basis our life. Just, it just, it just, it just can’t touch us. And I’m not saying that to belittle any situation that anybody has. What I’m saying is that when you tap into those things, it’s lighter. It’s a lot lighter. And Allah meant for it to be. He didn’t make, he didn’t make us here. He didn’t put us here to make life difficult for us. This, you look around this beauty, it’s, it’s, it’s everywhere. It, it, it’s not meant to be difficult. So, I hope I answered your question.

[49:03] Nicole: You, I, I had to sneeze earlier. You’ve answered every question I’ve asked very clearly. I, I, everything you said I really do resonate with and I connect to myself. I cannot believe how many things you’ve said that just also connect to all of the other interviews we’ve been doing, over the,

[49:24] Dena: That’s wonderful.

[49:26] Nicole: Yeah. Over these months, really, truly. And that’s been one of the beauties of this project, is seeing that connection between people from so many different backgrounds and different practices, different healing practices, different spiritual practices, but it’s, it’s, it all comes back together to a lot of everything that you’ve said.

[49:47] Dena: Yeah, absolutely.

[49:48] Nicole: Mm-Hmm.

[49:49] Dena: ‘Cause it’s, it’s that foundation that I mentioned, right? It’s that foundation. And when you have a foundation, there are people that can come and build on it and build on it, and build on it, and build on it. And when we’re all on the same page, it’s sustainable. Because that’s what I’m talking about. Sustainability. Everything that I’m talking about is sustainability. What is sustainability? Being able to tap into the place and space that you’ve already established for just about everything that you need. You are enough. You’re enough. You just have to tap into those places and spaces that will allow you to see that you are enough. And connecting to nature and being able to show up in those different seasons, to show up in those different places and spaces will allow you to see that you, you, you are enough. Allah has given us everything that we need to do, what we need to do to get done, what we need to get done. I, I, I believe that I, I’m just wholeheartedly, I wholeheartedly believe in that because I, I have seen how living some of this and knowing this and, you know, seeing how it works and going over it in my mind, how it has played a huge part in my life and the lives of people that I’ve been able to come in contact with and teach this information to.

[51:21] Nicole: Is teaching and coaching, sharing and connecting people, is that the main way that you, that you work to preserve these, these traditions and this knowledge?

[51:33] Dena: Yes. I, I believe so. I believe so. I know last year life was, life was very, very full. And I think for Natural Ground One, I try to sum up, when I do different things in life, I try to sum it up in, in one word or even a phrase. And if I had to sum up growing season 2023, it would be impactful for the growing season. The work of Natural Ground One was, what was the word I used? Conne. No, not connection. I forget it, it escapes me, but it’ll come, it’ll come back to me. But it was very impactful. And I think it was impactful because I just showed up. I just continued to show up. And I did workshop after workshop, after workshop after workshop. And I did a variety of workshops around a variety of different things that I felt helped me in my journey to becoming, you know, the best that I can be. Because aren’t we here to be the best that we can be? I think, I think most people really are here to be the best that they can be. And some people don’t realize that in their journey, there are, they’re becoming the best that they can be, right? Until someone comes along and tells, tells them that. Like, sometimes when I coach, when I coach women, there are, I talk about the four windows, Johari’s windows, right? Are you familiar with that?

[53:23] Nicole No.

[53:23] The Four Windows. And I, I, and I tell, tell people, I say, well, look at Google it. Now you can Google, you can Google just about anything, right? But it’s the experience that you can’t Google, right? You can’t Google the experience. But The Four Windows, and there is window number three. I’m not gonna tell you what the other three, but I like to focus on window number three, because this is where a lot of people fall short, and they don’t reach their capacity as quickly as they can because they don’t believe that they are enough, right? And window number three says, there are things that people know about you that you don’t know about yourself. So when somebody is telling you, like, I’ve told this person over and over, and I hope she listens. You’re very good with young people. You should start a mentoring program. Or you have an, you have a really good knack for cooking. Why don’t you start a cooking class for young girls? Or you’re really good with sports. Why don’t you start a sports camp? You know, those types of things. There are people, there are things that people see in you that you don’t see in yourself. And when people tell you those things, believe them. Because when you have a tribe of people around you that you trust and you believe, and they tell you those things, trust them, believe them. And a lot of times when we don’t do that, we fall short of reaching that best self. We fall, you know, it takes us a lot longer, and we’re stumbling and, you know, all over the place where just, just believe, just believe that you are enough and believe that when people tell you something about who you are, even though you don’t see it in yourself, they see it. And I’ve experienced that. There have been people that have asked me to do things that I didn’t think I could do, but they saw it in me. And there were a few years that I just said yes to everything I thought would benefit me, Dena and Natural Ground One. And some of those things, even though they were years ago, are still continuing to pay off, right? Because I just, at one point, I just said, you know what? I’m gonna believe this. I’m just gonna go ahead and do it. I’m just gonna do it. And when you just, when you just, sometimes you do just have to do things, even if you’re fearful, right? Like some of the, when I looked at some of these questions, and when I got the, the email I looked, I was like, I don’t know if I could do this. You know? I don’t know. But then the person that sent it to me, they saw, they believed in me, right?

[56:31] Nicole: Yeah.

[56:31] Dena: So that’s how you got my name.

[56:33] Nicole: Yes.

[56:33] Dena: So I said, you know what, I’m gonna do it.

[56:35] Nicole: And I’m so glad, glad that you did.

[56:38] Dina: Thank you. I’m glad I did too.

[56:40] Nicole: Yeah. That is a very similar story to, I would say close to half of our participants so far have, have told us the same thing. I’m not sure if I, for various reasons, I’m just, I’m just uncertain about, and they’ve, they’ve gone through with it. And it’s been just such an incredible, incredible experience. Collecting, collecting and, and being able to preserve and share these, these stories and people’s perspectives, about this really important topic. So that leads me into my last big question, which is why, right? Why is it so important to preserve this knowledge and to share it?

[57:21] Dena: Because it’s not going anywhere. The fact that there are plant, the plant life, herbal life that has been here since the beginning of time that no one really has, can own and said, oh, this, this rosemary, I, I, I grew this, I made up the rosemary, or I made up the basil, or I, I put together, I went to a lab and put together the peppermint, you know, because these are, are this, this modality, this, this flora, this, this plant life is here because Allah meant for us to use it. It’s not going anywhere. Now, the thing is, if we know, if I can say that it’s not going anywhere, and we don’t take advantage of it, Allah will send somebody else to take advantage of it. He will send someone else to take advantage of this, this modality that he has put here on Earth. And the reason why it is not the mainstay, the reason why after centuries, and we’re still kind of back to the, the, the, the, the area with that, you know, our parents may have been in, or our grandparents may have been in still trying to hone this and bring it down for generation to generation to generation. And there’s books and things like that, that are, are, that have been made hundreds of books that have been, you know, written about this subject, research is that no one can own it. You can’t buy it. You can’t buy it, you can’t sell it. I mean, you, you can sell it because you can make up some, you know, herbs and seed. They’re doing it. But I’m talking about on a large scale, for it to become a profitable entity, entity for a organization or a state or a government to own. That’s why it’s not, it’s not the mainstay. You can’t, you can’t own this. You don’t, you can’t take a seed. You don’t own a seed. You can manufacture a seed. You can, you know, grow plants that produce seeds, but you don’t own that seed. When you put that seed in the ground, who is a controller? You give it what it needs, of course. You’re going to give it the soil, right? And that’s another thing, soil, like I said before, every year I try to kind of put down what was impactful for me. And soil last growing season, 2023 is key, right? But you take a seed and you put it in the soil, and you give it the proper sunlight, and you give it the water. The real growth, the real harvest is within what Allah has given it to do what it’s going to do. You don’t know what’s happening in that, with that seed in the ground, but it’s going to produce the harvest that it wants. You plant a, a apple seed or apple tree, it’s not gonna produce oranges. So, you know what, what I’m, what the, what I’m really want to, trying to, what, what, what I want you to understand is that nobody owns this. And if we don’t take advantage of it, it’s not going to go away. We are going to miss out on the benefits of it. We’re gonna miss out on the benefits. And if you’re not including a nature-based lifestyle, and that when I say nature-based, that, that’s a wide variety, right? So you can fill in whatever you, however you wanna fill in, but when I say nature, something outside should come to mind, right? So you can fill it in however you choose to fill it in. But the bottom line is, if we don’t take advantage of these connections that Allah has put here for us to take advantage of, it’s not going away. We are going to miss out on the value of it. That’s, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s the, um, bottom line is you’re going to miss out on the value of what you and I know works for people and will continue to work and will continue sustain us. Even, even in, you know, even if you’re on some type of, you know, regimented medication, you know, you have a certain imbalance in your body. These, the herbs will allow for a smoother transition of support for whatever, you know, for example, if you have a, a stomach upset, you know, if you, you, if you, if you, if the medication that you’re taking upsets your stomach, then you take a, a, a, a a, a lavender or even peppermint or rosemary will just, will calm, you know, will calm your, your stomach. You’re a little anxious, you are excited. You know, some of these herbs will allow you to become a little calmer. Those things don’t change. They don’t change. And as I said, and I’ll continue to say, if we don’t take advantage of it, we we’re gonna miss out because they’re, they’re not going anywhere until Allah says it’s time for them to, to, to go. So I would suggest that, you know, you have this opportunity to you know, talk about this. There’s not enough people talking about this. So I, I welcome, I, I appreciate being asked to do this, this, this interview. And I hope that what I said, you know, I didn’t offend anyone, you know?

[1:03:23] Nicole: Mm-Hmm.

[1:03:24] Dena: Or that I was clear in, in what I said, I, I, and people say, oh, well, you’re, you’re, you don’t want, you’re, you’re, you’re not, you are against medication and you know, some, no, that’s not, that’s not at all what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that this, these, the herbs were here way before some of this other stuff that we are so ingrained in. And if we can go back to that, if we can bring some of that back into our life, we’ll be better human beings and we’ll be a better society.

[1:04:02] Nicole: I agree.

[1:04:4] Dena: Yeah.

[1:04:05] Nicole: Wholeheartedly. Well, last question is just a little fun one. I, I have a guess. I’m not, I’m not gonna give my guess. I’ll just tell you if my guess is right when you answer the question. Do you have a particular plant that you feel super connected to, or one that you’re working with a lot now? Not necessarily a favorite, but to use your word connection and connector. Like what, what plant do you really, really feel a pull towards or connection with?

[1:04:34] Dena: So that takes me into a whole nother passion of mine.

[01:04:37] Nicole: Oh.

[1:04:38] Dena: Which are native plants. And my connected native plant is common milkweed, because milkweed is the only plant that the monarch butterfly lays its eggs on. And one of the favorite things for us to do, like all day, was to chase butterflies when I was a child. And we would try to grab ’em when they landed on the milkweed. We would try to grab them by their tail so we can turn around and, and look, look at them. ‘Cause they were so beautiful, the color. So my connected plant just out there in general

with, with native plants. My native connected plant is milkweed. I love milkweed. I’ve started something called the Milkweed Project. I, I think we’re going into our seventh year where I give out milkweeds to different organizations and garden spaces and places. So that, that’s that one, when you talk about native plants, when you talk about geranium, is a plant that I, I love. You know, I, I was doing this work for, for years and really kind of for everybody else, especially when I had children, I kind of remember a lot of what my mom used to do with the herbs. I was, you know, giving my herbs making stuff for my children, and, you know, helping them with little respiratory imbalances and, you know, different, you know, scrapes and bruises and things like that. So I was doing that. And then I got into herb, I got into essential oils, and, but my favorite in helping everybody else geranium, was that plant and that oil that it was, it was, it’s a good woman’s oil. So it was all about me. then. I, I started using geranium, had ’em in my house to smell, you know, rubbing it, leaves and, you know, kind of smelling like that.

[1:06:38] Nicole: Mm-Hmm.

[1:06:39] Dena: And then that’s like, kinda like in the flower one. My favorite herb plant, I would say is, parsley. I love parsley for two reasons. I, I, I like to bully. I can just, and I can eat it, you know, just pick it off the, you know, pick it right up and eat it. And then it’s, it attracts butterflies. It attracts that black, black swallowtail butterfly. Another one is lavender, right? So this, this growing season though, that, that’s interesting that you asked that because I’m going to be growing a variety of herbs, a variety of herbs, some new ones that I haven’t really grown before. Parsley, like I said, I like parsley. Basil, I like the basil. Basil is kind of, basil is a little sentimental. Like, you know, it’s like basil is that plant. You can, it grows in different places. You know, you can do basil sometimes in the sun and in the shade, and, you know, it’s kind of finicky, like, you know, and a lot of, I’ve noticed a lot of the herbs, they like to grow kind of close together in, in spaces. But bays was that type of plant that it, like the herb, it kind of likes to be by itself. It does fine by itself. So I’m looking forward to experimenting this year with a, a lot of different herbs and growing conditions. And I tell people, you know, there’s really no, I mean, there are set, you know, things that plants need, but experiment. You know, I did a workshop not long ago, a seed starting workshop, and somebody asked if I can, if they can plant the, the native seeds in a, in a flower. In a flower pot. And I said, of course you go ahead. Try it. You know, I have them, you know, just, just, just try new things. And the one thing about gardening where no matter what you’re growing, you always get a chance to kind of do it over if you, if it doesn’t come out right or you can move things around the next year. Like my whole yard is gonna be, I’m gonna have my native plants, but a lot of, of my, herbs are gonna be in, in different locations this year.

[1:09:02] Nicole: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today.

[1:09:05] Dena: You’re welcome.

[1:09:06] Nicole: Talking and it was really wonderful to get to know you and more about your work with, with herbs and plants and, and how and con and being a connector, I, I would love for Raíces Cultural Center to be a participant in The Milkweed Project, if you’re

[01:09:24] Dena: Okay.

[1:09:24] Nicole: looking for other organizations, new organizations for this growing season.

[1:09:29] Dena: Yes, yes.

[1:09:30] Nicole: We do have an ecoculture program as well and we have some land where we’ll be able to grow it.

[1:09:36] Dena: Oh, wonder, that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. I will, we’ll stay connected.

[1:09:40] Nicole: Oh, wonderful. And great. So thank you so much. Thank you again Dena.

[1:09:45] Dena: You’re welcome.

[1:09:45] Nicole: For talking with us today and for sharing your story.

[1:09:48] Dena: You’re welcome. It’s been my pleasure.