Ancestral Herbal Narratives

[0:11] Nicole Wines: Hello and welcome to Natalie Saldarriaga, Raíces Cultural Center’s community historian. My name is Nicole Wines. I am the director of programming, communications and technology at Raíces, and I’m a co-founder. I’m here today to interview Natalie about her family story that connects to our ancestral herbal narratives oral history project. So thank you so much for joining us today, Natalie, and for continuing to talk about this story that you’ve been working on uncovering for several years now.

[0:49] Natalie Saldarriaga: Yeah, I love talking about it, so thank you for inviting me.

[0:53] Nicole: Can you just tell us a little bit about..can you, can you share a little bit about yourself and your cultural background? Where were you born and where were your ancestors from?

[01:05] Natalie: Okay, so I was born in Englewood, New Jersey. My mother is from Guatemala and my father is from Colombia. So I would say my cultural background, it’s a mix of Colombian, Guatemalan, and American culture.

[01:25] Nicole: Okay, thank you. Can you tell me, we’re gonna start with big, we always start with this big question in this series, and then we narrow it down to details about the stories that we remember or the practices that we know. So I’m gonna start with this big question. What does healing mean to you?

[01:45] Natalie: I was thinking about this question, and what came to me was that it’s, I think healing is a process. It’s a never ending process. I feel like it’s kind of like what they say about happiness. It’s a journey. It’s not a destination and I think we’re constantly healing from several things. Things that were done to us, things that we’ve done to ourselves, just environmental things, societal things. So I think healing is embarking on a journey for the rest of your life and, and deciding to better yourself. So yeah, I think that’s what healing is. I think we’re accustomed to thinking of healing as something that you do, and it’s finished. And so we take a medication, we take a pill, we drink this, you know, cocktail of whatever, and we’re gonna be healed. But I think if we’re being really honest, I think there’s always a process and there’s always something that you can, heal from, within yourself or around you as well.

[2:54] Nicole: Do you practice any herbal healing traditions, or do you have a connection to herbalism and herbal healing yourself?

[3:02]  Natalie: I personally don’t practice any herbalism. And then the connection I do have would be through this story that was told to me by my grandmother

[3:17] Nicole: About? 

[3:19] Natalie: About my great-grandfather, Francisco García, who in Guatemala in a small town where my mother and my grandmother are from, Moyuta, he had a- he was a pharmacist and he was also a spiritualist,  He was a medium, and he would, um, connect to spirits who would give him recipes, who’d give him remedies, using all natural herbs. And he would write these remedies down in a book. And he used this book in his practice, in his pharmacy. And then years later, because my grandma’s related to him through marriage. So years later when my grandmother was working at the pharmacy, she used that book to heal many people when the pharmacy was hers and my grandfather’s.

[4:13] Nicole: Your grandmother who is from Guatemala?

[4:17] Natalie: Yes, my grandmother. 

[4:18] Nicole: Where does she live now?

[4:20]  Natalie: She lives in Englewood, New Jersey. She lives where, where I was born and where I was raised. Yeah. She’s lived in the US since the seventies.

[4:29] Nicole: Does she still use these remedies?

[4:32] Natalie: She doesn’t. I’ve actually since uncovering…she uncovered this story to me and learning more about that side of the family, and the story she told me about herself. I have done now two interviews of her and her life. And one interview was specifically about her time at the pharmacy, and she told me that she doesn’t, she doesn’t practice any herbalism now. She doesn’t dabble in it. I don’t know. I know she drinks this special juice every morning. I don’t know if we can consider that herbalism, but she has her special beet juice that she drinks every morning. She swears by it, so maybe a little bit.

[5:15] Nicole: So this story was told to you by your grandmother, and so it was your great-grandfather that she told you that the story is about

[5:25] Natalie: Yes. Great-grandfather. So her father-in-Law, my grandpa’s father, her father-in-Law. And then she also worked in that pharmacy using these herbal remedies. Yeah, so my grandma had no study. She didn’t study medicine. I don’t even know if she finished middle school. But using this book as a guide, she, she ran a very successful pharmacy and she told me that she helped heal a lot of people. And she would just go to the book. If she needed something she would go to the book and it would have the list of herbs and how to mix the- I believe it also had, you know, how to mix the herbs together and how to administer it, because of course she didn’t know how to in the beginning.

[6:09] Nicole: And your great-grandfather was also a trained pharmacist?

[6:13] Natalie: Yes. So the pharmacy was his. Yeah, he opened it. And I believe they, when my grandparents got married, they took over that pharmacy, I believe, and they even opened another one.

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[6:28] Nicole: So as far as you know, did your great-grandfather, did he combine his- his conventional and formal training in pharmacy with the herbal practice, or he- did he put aside the conventional training and just focus on the herbal healing?

[6:49] Natalie: I think he must have combined them. I think so. I mean, they, it’s a very small, pueblo, a very small town, and this is many years ago. This is many, many years ago. My grandmother worked in the pharmacy in the fifties, sixties, so this was prior to that. So there’s probably wasn’t much conventional medicine available at that time. I also know he was- he performed surgery. I don’t know how often he did it, but I know he did. So there must have been a mix of, but I would say due to the time period and probably the materials that they had available, it was probably more towards herbalism natural remedies. And I guess when they had, or maybe when something was very- someone was very ill, they must have combined.

[7:42] Nicole: When you were growing up, did- do you remember your grandmother ever talking about or using herbs or herbal remedies?

[7:52] Natalie: I don’t, I really don’t. I don’t remember my grandmother using herbs. I don’t remember this story really. My grandmother, she’s a storyteller. Like naturally, she’s like, every day she will tell you a story, usually about her life. So when she told me this story, it was when I first started at Raíces and I probably explained to her what Raíces was and maybe it reminded her of him and she told me this story, but she said it so like, nonchalant. And when I was like, are you serious? Like really, he spoke to spirits? She thought it was funny that I was so, you know, caught up on this story. Um, so no, and, and even the the medium part was really odd to me. Because my grandma is very religious, she’s very Catholic. She’s praying the rosary every night. Don’t ever say anything bad about the church, you know? So for her to just be like, yeah, he spoke to spirits, like for her to believe the story, you know, not be like, you know, this is like this weird thing that they said about your great-grandfather- it was like was like, no, he did that. Yeah. Yeah. And I used the book. So it was interesting for her- to hear that about her. And then to learn that, like, I had heard about the pharmacy my whole life. Of course, that was like the main focus in my mother’s childhood and of course my grandmother, it was my grandmother’s livelihood. And she basically ran the pharmacy even though it was really from her husband’s, family. So, no, I, I, no, I don’t remember my grandma using herbs. I don’t, I really don’t.

[9:27] Nicole: So once she wasn’t running the pharmacy, she didn’t apply those skills? And

[9:33] Natalie: No, no. That’s why I asked her because she worked at the pharmacy and then she decided to immigrate to the US and I asked her in the US if she kept up with the herbalism, you know, using herbs. And she said, not really. And then I asked her about the medical world here, like if you went to the doctor here in the 70s, I mean, well in the US in the seventies, what was that like? She’s like, they just give you an injection or a pill. So I guess also coming into the United States where maybe at that time, you know, the use of natural practices was not, you know, on the rise, or wasn’t really used all the time, it probably contributed to her just using more conventional medication.

[10:20] Nicole: That’s interesting. So do you think that there was an element of community engagement of practices in that particular town in, in that allowed the pharmacy to thrive?

[10:38] Natalie: Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My grandmother said that the pharmacy was really important and most people would come down. I- I- she describes it as them coming down to the pharmacy. So I don’t know if they lived higher up, but it was mostly poor people. And so then they’d go on the weekend, like Saturday or Sunday to get their medicines for the week. So these people worked, I don’t think they had time to put together any herbal remedies for themselves. So that my grandmother’s pharmacy, I, I believe it was probably the only pharmacy for a while, maybe more opened up later on. But it was, it was where people went to be healed, you know, if you had something small or she said she, she had a lot of children, you know With the typical sore throat stomach bug, but everything was always natural. And she said that she would get her herbs from, I believe she said, a man that was from the town, that he would go and get her fresh herbs. And she also got her conventional medicine from a pharmacy in the city of Ciudad de Guatemala, the capital. And that’s where she would go get like, I guess conventional things like alcohol or hydrogen peroxide, those types of things she would get from that pharmacy. And then the herbs and plants, she had a man that she knew he would know how to or where to go to get her the herbs.

[12:15] Nicole: From the community. The- the mix.

[12:17] Natalie: Yeah. Like he would go out into the forest or I don’t know what would be there in the mountains of Guatemala, but he knew what to get and he would cut them and, and bring them to her when, when she needed different, different herbs.

[12:32] Nicole: And the man was from the community too.

[12:36] Natalie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I’m remembering if I have it here. She wrote me down- I just remembered this really. She wrote me down all the herbs that she used, Well we can’t really see it because it’s blurred out, but I can read some. 

[12:53] Nicole: Okay.

[12:53] Natalie: Some of them are very like normal, like garlic or basil. But then there’s some like damiana, lianza, muerdago, moringa, pelo de maize, savila, and things that I’ve never heard of. When I did interview her, she talked a lot about using eucalyptus, manzanilla (chamomile), she talked about that a lot. But yeah, these were the ones that she could remember. She said that there was a lot of recipes, a lot of remedies, but because she hasn’t used- she hasn’t practiced herbalism and it’s been a very long time, these are the ones she can remember. But I just remembered that she made, she made me this list to give to you guys.

[13:50] Nicole: Oh, great. We’ll put it in the archive.

[13:52] Natalie: I’ll write it up and- or send Along with-

[13:55] Nicole: Yeah, we’ll definitely- we’ll add it to the notes along with your interview and hers.

[14:00] Natalie: Yeah, yeah. 

[14:02] Nicole: The one that you did with her,

[14:03] Natalie:  I’m glad I had it right there.

[14:06] Nicole: So if you hadn’t uncovered this story by speaking to your grandmother and kind of just stumbling across this story due to looking into some of the related topics and speaking to her about it, there would’ve been a complete disconnect probably on this topic. And so you also- how old were you when she told you this story?

[14:27] Natalie: I was in my early twenties, maybe 21, 20 years old, something like that.

[14:32] Nicole: So it’s not from your childhood, it’s from your adulthood. It’s from, you know, as an adult, you got this story out your grandmother.

[14:40] Natalie: Yeah, yeah.

[14:42] Nicole: And for her, was she trained also formally as a pharmacist, or did she learn from your- her father-in-law, your great-grandfather?

[14:51] Natalie: I don’t think she met him. I think she, I asked her the last time I saw her,

she said she didn’t meet him, or she met him only once or twice. But everything she learned was from, from the book, the book, the book talked about everything. 

[15:03] Nicole: His book, what he wrote down?

[15:04] Natalie: Yeah, everything was in there for like, a lot of things. I- maybe she learned along the way. because it was many years, maybe because my- my grandfather also worked at the pharmacy. My grandfather was also like the dentist in town. So he must have obviously learned from his father as well. And there’s probably like, just remedies that people just knew, you know, when people were more connected to herbalism and nature, just probably things that people knew. But it was obviously easier for them to go to the pharmacy where my grandmother would put together everything and, you know, tell you how exactly how to take the medication. So it’s probably a mix of culturally what people just already knew from seeing, you know, generation to generation, the book, which I think was the key factor to that pharmacy running so well and my grandma knowing so much- not having studied. And then probably my grandfather must have known something or anyone else who worked at the pharmacy.

[16:08] Nicole: Hmm. Does the book still exist?

[16:14] Natalie: That’s the big mystery. That’s the mystery that we didn’t know was a mystery until this story was told to me and I was like, well, where’s the book? And when she first told me the story, and I did my first exhibition, online exhibition at Raíces, coincidentally, it was my first time going to Guatemala. So we went to my mother’s cousin, who was the only person who had a photograph of Francisco and also his wife Adela. And we went and we spoke to her for a long time and she was just like, I don’t know where the book is. And then my mother recently, she went to Guatemala and I think she asked around a little bit, and no one knows where it is. And my grandma now, she probably had never even thought of this before telling me this story. Now she regrets it so much. She’s like, I was so silly. Why didn’t I bring it with me? Why did I leave it? She thinks maybe someone stole it. I don’t know. I don’t know. She thinks there’s something, something happened there, but now she regrets it when she probably hadn’t even thought of the book in like years and years. And she’s like, oh, I should’ve, I should’ve kept it, I should have brought it with me.

[17:27] Nicole: To be continued.

[17:28] Natalie:  Yeah. Let’s see where it- where it ends up, where it ended up.

[17:34] Nicole: Um, you mentioned, um, the kind of time span that went by between- I mean- your childhood into your adulthood, it’s like there’s this gap of time. There’s also a, uh, the factor of migration, you talked about your grandmother moving from Guatemala to the northeast of the us right? Yeah. And the culture being different, the practices being different, not having the the access to the herbs and not seeing it as a community practice the way that it was seen in her town.

[18:18] Natalie: Mm-Hmm. 

[18:19] Nicole: Do you think there are any other factors that led to that disconnect or that letting go of the practice and of even speaking about it or focus on that as a healing practice over these generations?

[18:35] Natalie: Yeah, I think, well, specifically my grandmother, she immigrated by herself to the US. She immigrated to New York first, and she left her children who were really young. My mom’s the oldest, and my mom was only 12 when my grandmother left. So this was like 1972 and my grandmother never went back to live to Guatemala. So what my grandmother did when she arrived to the US was that she was a nanny, she was a maid she would clean house- she was a housekeeper. So she told me she would fill her days with work, she would work in the morning at a house, and in the afternoon she worked at a hotel, and that’s what she did for many, many, many years, until 1986 when my mother decided to immigrate. So imagine my grandmother left my mom when she was 12, and she didn’t reunite. Well, my mom would come in the summers because immigration was different back then, my grandmother got my mother a residency so she could come to the US. It was a simpler process back then. But my mother didn’t live with her mother again Until she was 26 years old. So in between those years my grandma just filled her days up with work because it was very difficult for her to be away from her children. She decided to leave Guatemala because at that moment it was better for her to go to the US due to many circumstances. So I think also that she- I think she was glad to leave Guatemala behind because she was able to kind of live a different life in the US and for her it was an improvement in some way, but it was also difficult. It was the life of an immigrant, and she didn’t have a community, you know? She was basically by herself. She had friends, other women who were housekeepers, who were maids as well. But she didn’t have that sense of community where in Guatemala- I mean, people- it’s been years and whenever my mother goes to Guatemala, they’re always asking about my grandmother. Because they remember her and my grandma even says it, “Yeah, people remember me ’cause I healed them. They were really sick. And, and I help them heal. And so people think of me fondly because of that.” But my grandma, I think, at least within the pharmacy in that aspect of the town, she was a big figure. So I think being away from her culture- because I don’t know how many other Guatemalans she was bumping into in that time period, and then having- thinking of her children rather than her old practice, and then really just changing jobs. She went from being a pharmacist to being a nanny and a housekeeper and a maid. So it was really a change of environment. So I think that also contributed to losing that practice because it was no longer priority. It shifted to something else. Maybe if my grandmother had done something within the medical field or, or natural practice, you know, environment, maybe she would’ve been able to keep that practice going for herself and obviously and practice it. But since her world completely changed, um, I think it, it, it put that to the back of her mind. It wasn’t something, and also, I think this is another thing, my grandmother, I don’t think she looked at it as like connecting to her roots to her community. I think it was just like, this is work. This is the job I have and these are the tools I have, and this is how we do things here. I think sometimes when we are children of immigrants, especially now, when we look back, we see it differently, you know, because I think we, we really want to find a way to connect to our roots and to really, you know, have that authentic connection. Where, to my grandmother, like I said, it was probably a mix of the book, what she learned from her husband and what was already being practiced, but she was just specializing in it. So I think immigrating and the job she had and the circumstances she left behind, and the one she found herself in, in a new country, didn’t help in keeping that alive within her.

[22:57] Nicole: The last bit that you talked about was actually connect. It’s a great lead into the next question that I had, which is a little bit different than what I’ve been asking other participants in this series because their experiences have been different. And a lot of that has been because even with immigration, it seems like the stories that they are sharing, in the stories that they’re sharing, they have more of a connection to their cultural community. when they immigrated or when their families immigrated.

[23:29] Natalie: Mm-Hmm. 

[23:29] Nicole: So I was actually going to ask next, in your mind, in your eyes, the things that you’ve learned about your grandmother’s practice in herbal healing, do you look at it more as a cultural tradition that’s connected to your roots- and you talked about this -or more of a family practice that was specific to the family and knowledge that was kept within that family?

[24:01] Natalie: I Think it’s more cultural to me. I think it’s more of what was happening in that time period. I imagine- I have no clue. That’s actually maybe a good question to ask. Like, what are people being prescribed now in Guatemala? What does the medical system look like right now? I know it’s all private. I know it’s- I’ve heard it’s costly to go to the doctor, things like that. So I’m wondering if it’s a time period cultural thing or it’s just the country or it’s just like that. I imagine- or this is how I picture it, you know, in Latin America, people are still a bit more connected to herbalism and natural practices. Maybe that’s not always the case. But I do think that- I don’t think that was specifically my family, like I said, because my grandmother worked with this man who knew what herbs to cut, and then she probably had other people working at the pharmacy. And my great grand- well, he’s part of the family, but my great-grandfather, he was a medium and he also- he reunited with other mediums. I don’t know if they specifically used their abilities to do any medical work, but, there were more mediums in the town. So I think it’s a- I think it was more of a cultural thing. And like I said before, we’re talking about the 20th century and remote- not remote- maybe semi remote place in Guatemala. My grandma told me that there were no roads. You have to go by horse to get to the bus that will take you to the city. So it’s probably what was available to them and it worked, you know? So I think it’s more cultural. I wonder if it still continues to be cultural. Now I’m really curious now that I’ve thought of that. And if it is, that’s great, I’m really happy for them. But something tells me that maybe not, not anymore.

[26:08] Nicole: Can you talk a little bit about- within the story that you learned about your great-grandfather- what the connection between healing and spirit and healing and energy is?

[26:24]Yeah. Well, in this case, they’re intertwined. One didn’t exist without the other. At least that book, that’s like the main character of the story. In the end, there had to be spirituality. My great grandfather had to be tapped into that part of himself to be able to have these remedies. So there definitely is a spiritual aspect to it. I wish there was more information about how he connected to these spirits. I wonder if it was a meditation or really a conversation that he had with these spirits. I’m really curious to know like the first time that he made that connection or what really made him feel that these, these spirits were giving him these remedies. But as much as I think we want to separate the spiritual realm from, you know, reality, I think they’re always intertwined. And I think especially when you’re not connected to that part of it, it’s hard to accept, but I mean, I mean, nature is spiritual. That’s like something you can’t- I don’t think you can deny nature is spiritual, and there’s magic to it. So yeah, I think there’s a big connection even though we probably, or I, I wouldn’t think of it initially, but of course knowing the story about my great-grandfather, one doesn’t exist without the other that that book, my grandmother knowing these remedies, her healing these people, it all goes back to that spiritual connection that my great-grandfather had.

[28:15] Nicole: You did mention earlier that you don’t practice herbal healing and that you don’t practice herbalism, really. But do you look at herbalism and healing differently now that you’ve connected to and uncovered this story in your family’s history?

[28:36] Natalie: Definitely, definitely. So my mother is a nurse, so in my house it’s always like, “This hurts, take this pill. This, that injection. We have to go to the doctor.” Like, it always was very like that. So to me, herbs and natural remedies didn’t work. Not that my mother ever said that they didn’t work, but working in the field that she does, in the hospital, for me it was like, “Something hurts, take a Tylenol. My stomach hurts, take the Alka Seltzer.” So it was always very like that. But knowing and speaking to my grandmother, and being like, “Yeah, I healed these people, like, yeah, you just need to mix this, this and that. And they would take it two times a day and they, they healed.” It’s like, no, like there’s- I have this woman in front of me who healed people using herbalism. And also I think coming from a house where something hurts you take this pill, where it’s like instant, “healing” or feeling better, I think it’s tough to, believe in herbalism because it takes longer, you have to be patient, it’s not that quick instant thing that we’re all used to. So I don’t practice herbalism, but I am more conscious of natural alternatives. And if it’s possible, I will try to look for natural alternatives rather than turning straight to conventional medication like I probably did growing up. Um, I also think that within society now, I think there is more of a consciousness around medication and pharmaceuticals and things like that. And I think there are a lot more, or to me it seems like there are a lot more options or people who are speaking about it, where I know if I really wanted only to use herbs or something natural, I could Google something really quick and I have the answers. And people really preaching it and really studying it and, being very educated in it. So I think I’m more aware of it also thanks to this story. I’m not going sit here and say that, you know, I use herbs all the time. I really don’t. But I am more conscious of it. And now I think I believe in it more knowing, especially that my grandmother, my ancestors, they used it. And that’s what people relied on for many years. And you don’t think about it growing up now, and being alive now that, you know. What do you mean? Like, you don’t think this, that you think this is a hocus pocus. Like then what did people do a hundred years ago? You know, how did people survive a hundred years ago? They used herbalism because it’s what they had and what they knew. So I think it’s made me more conscious. I try not to reach for conventional medication if I- if it’s possible for me, I try to do research now, you know, before I would just take a pill and not even look like at the side effects. Like, you know, what am I really putting into my body? So I think it has made me more conscious and, and made me really believe that it works.

[31:54] Nicole: So by connecting to a family story about herbal healing and herbalism and and what we are calling Ancestral Herbal Narratives, it- connecting to it through your work in public history, it actually changed your perspective about and your connection to those ideas in your life, even if you’re not a practicing herbalist.

[32:21] Natalie: Yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah. And that’s why it’s so important to have these family stories because you learn things about yourself. You know if it would’ve been a story someone else told me about their family member, I’d say, “Oh, okay, that’s an interesting story.” But of course it’s my family. Like it’s really me. It’s in my blood and I know it’s in my blood. You know, it’s been told to me that my great-grandfather had these abilities and he was a healer. So if it was in him, it’s in me as well because I come from that. So it really does impact you when you know your family stories because you know you’re a part of that, that story. And so it can really change your perspective and your outlook on many different things, you know?

[33:09] Nicole: Do you think that in general, we as a society are in danger of losing our connection to these healing practices and traditions? Or do you think that there are ways that it is being preserved and passed down in ways that it’ll continue and it’s not in danger of being lost?

[33:32] Natalie: I think for the most part it has been lost. I think there is a huge disconnect. I live in Spain right now, and when I go home to the US it always shocks me when I’m watching television, how many commercials there are for medications. It’s insane. It’s every second commercial. It’s about a medication that’s gonna heal you, that’s gonna have like this miracle drug or whatever. So I think especially in the US there’s a big, there’s a huge disconnect between herbalism and health and healing and it being legitimate. But like I mentioned before, I think there are groups of people who are, you know, really trying to get those practices back even if at home that wasn’t practiced, but really learning about it themselves and people choosing more natural options. So I think there has been- at least what it seems like to me- also a person who at home or weren’t used, I have noticed a trend to try to be more, conscious in what we put into our bodies, not trusting all medications…not saying that we shouldn’t trust medications, but being more wary thinking about it two times before you take it. I think there, there is a community growing, but I think we’re very far away from where we used to be. But I think there’s hope and there’s- there are a lot of people advocating for herbalism and natural practices.

[35:15] Nicole: Why do you, why do you think it’s important to continue the work to preserve these traditions and this body of knowledge?

[35:27] Natalie: I think apart from it being better for us and our organism and our body our customs are part of who we are. And the more we know about our customs and our traditions and our cultures and our stories, the more we know about ourselves. And so that connection is so important. So when we know about our customs and our family stories, we can then also- not only it does, it empower us, we learn how to empower future generations or, or other people within our community who maybe don’t have access to that information, or who haven’t, you know, we all have that moment where we realize things about our culture or about ourselves or our families that you can help those people also learn about themselves. So, yeah.

[36:27] Nicole: Great. Do you have a favorite herb- this is my last question- do you have a favorite herb or plant that you like to work with right now? Or drink as a tea even?

[36:43] Natalie: You know what, I grew up hating teas and anything that had to do with teas or- but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten an acquired taste for teas. I love drinking teas now. And I’m a simple gal. I love a green tea. I love a green tea. I think it tastes so good. It like wakes me up. It’s like the perfect, perfect tea for me. So I’m a green tea gal all the way now. I prefer actually over coffee now, which is crazy Because I was a coffee addict before.

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[37:17] Nicole: So your favorite plant to consume is the actual tea plant. Actual Tea. 

[37:26] Natalie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah- I wish I, I was more versed in, in herbs. I have a list here so I can actually start my, my studies. But yeah, um, I feel very lucky that I have my grandmother who even remembers, even if it’s just a little bit. And I’m glad to- I think I’ve also awakened something in her as well for her to realize that what she did was really important. I don’t think she’s thought of it that way. So I’m glad that she’s able to retell these, these stories to me and really, not rediscover, but kind of like relive those memories or those time periods through my, you know, my lens. Looking at it through me. Someone who has very little connection to that type of healing, for her to be able to explain it to me and teach me little things. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maybe that’s what I needed too, I needed this story to be able to really of course learn more about myself, but really, really step foot into this different world that I didn’t know about it all growing up.

[38:52] Nicole: Well, thank you for sharing your story and also for helping to gather some of your grandmother’s memories and thoughts, and stories about this part and period of her life as well. We’re very happy to be able to share both your memories and interpretations of it and the recording that we have of your interview with her.

[39:16] Natalie: Yeah, thank you for giving me the space to share these stories.

[39:20] Nicole: We look forward to continue continuing the work of uncovering more layers of this. Yes. So I would say with you, Natalie, it’s always to be continued.

[39:32] Natalie: Yes. It seems like it. Yes, always to be continued.

[39:36] Nicole: Great. Thank you so much. Thank you.