Ancestral Herbal Narratives

[0:10] Nicole Wines: First of all, thank you so much for agreeing to be part of this project. My name is Nicole Wines. This is Raíces Cultural Center’s Ancestral Herbal Narratives oral history collection. We are interviewing Wendy Wiener, who used to be a member of Raíces Herbal Circle, participant in herbal healing presentations and gardening, seed saving as well. So, Wendy if you could just introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us a little bit about yourself… where you were born, where you are now, and I’m gonna start with a big question. What does healing mean to you?

[0:57] Wendy Weiner: Thanks for having me, Nicole. I am originally from Monmouth County, New Jersey. Lived most of my adult life there with a couple of, move aways and comes, come coming back. And then I think seven years ago I moved to Colorado. I live in a small town in South Central Colorado. Salida, which is a very, very different growing region from what I grew up with and what I know. All the plants are different. These soils very different. The trees are different. I live at 7,100 feet and I literally came from sea level ’cause I grew up at the beach. And so, and then now what do you want? [laughs]

[1:49] Nicole: My big question, what does healing mean to you?

[1:54] Wendy: Okay, so, um healing when I first began learning about herbal healing, one of, I remember going to see Susan Weed, which a lot of people might be familiar with her. She’s from the Catskills. And one of the first things that she ever said was, “First do nothing.” And that was so that you could just observe. And quite often if you were to just observe it would be self-limiting and not necessarily turn into anything big. So that was always my first go-to just observe, because I’m not a very excitable person. I don’t, I don’t, I’m not fearful of things. It gets a little different once you have children, but for myself, it was, it just had me step into, um, into observation. And then the other, the reason I got into herbal healing was because I had children. And what it meant to me was to be sufficient in taking care of my family and myself. First, to try and get after it by myself, and then if I needed help go outside myself and then last resort, go to doctors. But knowing that the body can heal itself was always a big, was something that was always the foundation that most things are gonna heal themselves. And that’s the way I approached healing with my children too. No need to run after to the doctor. Just, let’s see what presents itself first. I hope that answers your question.

[3:50] Nicole: Yeah, thank you for sharing.

And you mentioned that you got very interested in herbal healing, when you had children. So you really came into herbal healing traditions and practice as an adult?

[4:06] Wendy: Exactly. I was 26 when I had my first son. And, um, that was the impetus for beginning to take healthcare into my own hands. And I was led to, well, I was curious and I had a couple of practitioners that were herbalist or homeopaths, or acupuncturists, and I was very curious. So I went down that path of taking herbal classes. But it was because of the kids, because they started to get sick and I needed to know, I needed to have a foundation for what to do. So that set me on the journey.

[4:51] Nicole: When you were growing up, did your parents or caretakers or grandparents or family members ever use herbal remedies with you? Do you have memories of that?

[5:05] Wendy: There was, the only thing that my mother used was like the Vick VapoRub and I was a very sick child. So I had, I had asthma, I had pneumonia. I was in and outta the hospital, ear aches, all kinds of stuff. And my mother was all about sending me to the doctor. Um, so there was, other than that Vicks VapoRub to put on my chest, that was it. Not even teas or anything. So in my family history, I am the first person that I can remember… if there was a grandparent doing anything, it was nothing I could remember. And by the time it was my interface with my grandparents, it was, they weren’t doing anything like that anymore. If they had been, they both were very poor people that came from Europe. And I suspect that they had some remedies, but I, I was never privy to them at all. I, I knew nothing.

[6:10] Nicole: So it truly wasn’t something that you connected with through your family or even your community, it was a life experience that brought you to…

[6:20] Wendy: It was. It was, and I was always, I was always kind of a fringe dweller when I was younger, doing things that other people weren’t necessarily doing, just hanging out on the edge, collecting information and hanging out with people that did things a little bit differently. I would also attribute it also to choosing a vegetarian diet in the very early seventies. And that was a, an exploration also, which also put me kind of out on the fringe because it was not as common. And I didn’t know a lot of people who were vegetarians, but that kind of bled into looking after my health as well.

[7:13] Nicole: You mentioned studying formally. What kind were, what kinds of classes or programs did you take? Were they community based? Were they apprenticeship based? Were they open public courses?

[7:31] Wendy: They were very kind of grassroots to begin with. Pretty grassroots classes. Just somebody hanging up a poster, um, saying that they were going to give introductions, introductory classes to herbs. And I took several of those. Some of them were just a couple of meeting for a couple of weeks. But then as I got more into it, I found people that had a little more extensive classes. And then eventually, probably the most famous herbalists that I was, well, a couple of them was David Winston, who’s in New Jersey still. I studied with him for two years. And it was western medicine, uh, native, probably he would consider Cherokee medicine, and Chinese medicine, um well Western being primarily European. And then I did, so I studied with him for two years, and then I went to work in his laboratory. So working in the laboratory went a long way. And I also studied with Rosemary Gladstar up in Eastbury, Vermont for a year. I used to go up and do intensives every weekend, one weekend a month. I used to do that. Yeah.

[9:02] Nicole: And in those studies, were you studying specific plants, specific remedies, the making of herbal medicines, the history? What were the range of areas of study?

[9:17] Wendy: Right. So it was, it was all the above. And starting, um, with my first exposure, it was, like I said, it was very grassroots. It was a woman that just used to collect her own plants and made simples just jamming herbs into jars and covering them with alcohol and making salves and creams and poultices. And that’s where I also learned how to eat wild foods, identify wild foods, and I start to identify plants and learning the language of the plants, where they grew. Getting an understanding of it’s kind of an ancient identification of like the, the shape of a plant or where it grew that would correlate with parts of the body. And, you know, if they were the energetics of plants, if they were hot, cold, spicy, things like this. And then as my education progressed, then it got a little more technical working. We were exposed to the laboratory of making plants that, extracts that were gonna be the same each time, not just my concoctions that were in the kitchen and, and let it be known that those concoctions from the kitchen were just as valuable as anything that was in the lab. Because I always thought like, well, our grandmothers were just jamming plants in pots and covering them with alcohol. So I had the full range. I learned differential diagnosis, which I’ve, you know, I don’t use anymore. Lots of studying of ancient, or ancient, well, just old herb, herbal, uh, herbal documentation. Lots of books that now would be considered old, but were coming out in the eighties, there were so many books starting to come out because it was, there was a renaissance coming, coming, and there was a lot of books being written and material medicas, which I still refer to now, which were really valuable. And, the other thing that was a huge, of huge value to me was in the nineties there were a lot of herbal gatherings that were going on that I used to attend every year. And I would say like, my education was like a solid 10 years. Rosemary Gladstar put on a the International Herb Symposium, she put on the Women’s Symposium. Then there was the Green, I think it was called the Green Allies Symposium. And they were all up and down the East Coast. And I would attend them regularly, occasionally make presentations at them. And whoever was giving any kind of anything, any courses, I would always go out. And for instance, with David Winston, he would always take us out for walks to learn the plants of the area. And New Jersey happens to be really, really rich in undisturbed areas, in, in medicinal plants. It was, it was very impressive. And, and now when I go back East to look, I, I see my old friends. I really miss those plants. It’s, it’s different here, but I’ve, I’ve since started growing them here. And some of them really need to be coddled because they’re, they’re, we just don’t have the moisture that we have in the east so much to take for granted. It’s pretty dry here.

[13:08]  Nicole: Yeah. So are you, are you, do you actively practice herbalism?

[13:21] Wendy: So I don’t see clients… what my focus was, what my passion and focus was always, um, making things. So I, I was like the classic, you know, scrappy kitchen chemist, just throwing things together. And Rosemary was really, um, she really shone at this teaching people how to make things in their kitchen. So to, to have things be accessible, it’s not just, it’s not just for the laboratory. And so we would have classes on, you know, making poultices and, uh making herbal pills and salves and um, clay packs, and cosmetics. And so then it became really fun. And especially, I mean, it’s like, it’s just any kind of other cooking and baking. And so these days I don’t make as many medicines, but I can’t help but make medicine. It’s the varieties that I’ve done that I, that I use now are, are pretty simple. So I’ve got some nervines growing in the back. I always have, I have so much comfrey. I put comfrey around all of my trees. And of course it’s having its way with my garden. And I dig up the, the comfrey every year. And I make herbal oils. I still make a couple of like, nerving extracts. And these days I’ve been making, I make a combination of salts. I make salves, I make creams, body butter bars and, and the occasional tincture. And of course I dry herbs for, for teas. But I, I don’t have the apothecary that I used to have, but, and of course, we’ve got great apothecaries in town. And so, I mean, it’s so mainstream now. It’s so easy to come by. But I’m a a big, big grower of plants and I keep collecting.

[15:30]  Nicole: Something you just said, that it’s so mainstream now. What do you see as different now? Was it not mainstream when you first became interested in?

[15:43] Wendy: Right. So I started my journey with herbs in probably like, uh,  probably 1990. And, you know, all I had was were my books. There were a few herb companies that were supplying herbs. And I have to say, Rosemary Gladstar was probably the biggest influence in the country, in my opinion, for bringing herbalism back to life. That’s what I talk about, the renaissance, you know, starting to have those conferences. And she inspired some people to start herb businesses. Not that there weren’t already, there were places where you could get raw herbs, but they just weren’t, they were not easy to find. And of course, it wasn’t the internet yet, so you just kind of had to know. And so now, like my little town has an apothecary and there’s some far out herbs there, and there’s a, there’s a woman who formulates, and then there’s another woman who makes just cosmetics. And that’s my, there’s 6,000 people that live in this town. It’s not a huge town. I mean, it’s not so small, but, you know, it’s not there’s no, uh, Whole Foods here, you know, in fact, there’s a lot of not things here. There’s a lot of things that aren’t here, and we have to travel really far. So to have three sources of places that are making things is, is really special. And now, if I did wanna make anything, it’s, it’s quite easy to find anything, anywhere. And I do my best to… if I know I wanna make something, I’m still trying to

It was originally European based, and it was brought over, and I’m not sure what its original

But in Colorado it’s considered noxious, weed, and it’s to be pulled out at any cost. And and one of the reasons is it’s not good for cattle, and this is a big, a big range, range state, so they don’t want it anywhere near the cattle. And that stuff will spread. So, it was hard for me to find fresh, St. John’s wart ’cause I like to make, soak it in oil and make hypericum. And if you’re familiar with hypericum oil, it’s a, it’s a premier herb for scars and cuts, and specifically for burns and old scars and any kind of, uh, nerve damage. And this is all exterior. And additionally I’ll make it for, um, internal use as well, and that, but that would be a tincture. So it was, it was hard to find the flowers. But when I traveled in different parts of the West, I would, like, if I went to Oregon, which I used to go to every summer, I would gather a lot and bring it home and make medicine. But it was a much more scant in Colorado until finally I brought it into the garden. And last year was its second year and I have to yank it out now [laughs]. I just have way too much of it. But I gather the flowers every summer now and make gobs of oil.

[19:11] Nicole: So you’re still practicing it for like, in your everyday life you still are making and…

[19:17] Wendy: Yeah, and I always, and I grow lots and lots of stinging nettle because that’s like a you know, it’s, it’s filled with vitamins and minerals and it’s very, very nourishing. And I like to cook with it in the spring. I, I cut it like two or three times and dry enough that I have all year long, and I’ve, each, I keep forgetting to do it, or I didn’t, didn’t have time to, but one year before I left New Jersey, I made nettle beer, and boy did that come out good. It’s really special. And when you tell people that you make things outta nettle, they’re like, what? It does bite.

[20:01] Nicole: It does [laughs]. Not when you cook it.

[20:05] Wendy: No.

[20:05] Nicole: Right. So you’d mentioned a few people who you studied with. Where did they learn their tradition from?

[20:17] Wendy: Well, let me turn this light on so you can see me a little better.

[20:20] Nicole: Okay.

[20:24] Wendy: How’s that?

[20:25]  Nicole: Yep.

[20:25] Wendy: Is it a little better?

[20:26] Nicole: Mm-Hmm.

[20:27] Wendy: So I know that Rosemary had an aunt, I think that kind of turned her on to plants. And then she just started finding the old herbals and, and reading stuff and experimenting. But her, she’s from California and when, and she moved and she started the California School of Herbal Studies. So she was, you know, she had big influence around the country. Then she moved to Vermont, and it was completely different for her. But, you know, all different plants, some things were the same, but another rich environment. And just like me, she had to learn all this new stuff. But hers, a lot of her stuff was self-exploration, but she did have a family member that that started, that started her interest. And then David, I know, had a, he was a Cherokee per, uh, Cherokee man that lived in Tennessee or North Carolina. And he was in his tutelage for a long time. And then he was a great collector of books. He still is, he’s an antiquarian book collector, um, but all based on ancient medicines and, and, um, herbs. And he was pretty masterful. And his library is like very, very special, really incredible old, old books. And he learned a lot from his books, as well as going out. And I know he’s had several teachers, uh, oh, I have to plug you in.

[22:07] Nicole: Okay.

[22:07] Wendy: Running out of juice. Okay.

[22:12] Nicole: Um, no, it is interesting because of the combination of you mentioned family members or studying under someone, so getting an oral tradition, having it passed down, but also books and then you taking classes and even going to, uh, things like gatherings, grassroots gatherings. So the way that these, the knowledge and stories have been passed down a lot of times has been person to person, but the format and the place, a lot of time has changed over time and over location. And you mentioned also can change in location and migration. A lot of the people who we’ve interviewed so far in this series have talked about migration from other places to New Jersey and some of the changes that they’ve experienced over time because of that, because of leaving communities that had stronger just cultural connections and community and everyday connections to plants and healing. Um, so within your studies, how much of, uh, what you’ve read or learned or discussed has had to do with things like culture and herbs, culture and healing?

[23:41] Wendy: Some of the tea… So mixing it up at these herbal conferences I think was really interesting because there were people that were from other countries that were invited. And I had the good fortune to go with Rosemary to Ecuador in the late nineties, and we met with the curanderos in the jungle that, and, and when they walked around, it was like, you know, it’s, it is what permaculture was trying to get after in that everything was right there. Or they would bring plants in, and they’re not like European gardens that are set up in these rows, and you could just go outside and, and get what you needed. Um, so that was fascinating to walk around and like point out the trees and dig roots and and talk about a cultural experience and just these, these are ancient ways that are passed down. And knowledge. That’s, I think a lot of people, I’m sure people who live in cultures, in the jungle, all that stuff is, I don’t know if they take it for granted, but it’s just part of, of how they’re raised. It’s all right there. And that’s, that’s part of your growing up. And you knew that your mother would, you know, take certain trees and plants to help you. And that’s how that stuff was passed on. Also, I had the same experience when I went to Thailand about four years ago, and I took a cooking class, and the class was given at this person’s home, and they, they had the good fortune that they kind of backed up to the jungle, and like all their plants were there, and, you know, it wasn’t, and eating and medicine are joined, it’s all the same, you know? Um, so the cooking is infused with medicine. And I remember when I first started studying with David, he said, “All plants are food, medicine, or poison.” And there’s some things that overlap. You know, some of the things that we eat can be poisonous. And some of the things, even the herbs that we keep in our, in our spice cabinets are medicine. So, you know, fortunately, or, or, you know, sadly I didn’t get it from my family, but, so it came from another way. But I think what’s happening now is that since this resurgence, it is starting to get passed down. And so now I’m a grandmother. I don’t know if I, I guess I didn’t tell you that. So I’ve got three grandkids now, and what’s so interesting to me is my, of course, both my sons were brought up only taking herbs, and I was always putting these foul tasting things on their body or down their throats. And so they remember. And now my one daughter-in-law’s calling me up and saying, so what, you know, “We have a bellyache here, what should we do?” And when I go to visit them, they ask me, and she’s asking me for books. She’s asking me for treatments. So now she has a mentor, and she’s, you know, of course she’s in New Jersey

and she’s finding her way also. And there’s people around and there’s a lot more people around. But you know, my son will say, “Well, my mom used to blah, blah, blah.” And then she would call me up and say, “So what did you do?” So it’s like, you know, I’m coming through the renaissance, and now the next generation is, is like, is looking or asking, I should say.

[27:49] Nicole: And now you’re passing it down to your family.

[27:52] Wendy: Exactly.

[27:53] Nicole: Well, that’s really beautiful.

[27:55] Wendy: Yeah.

[28:00] Nicole: I have one more question about the practice of herbalism. And that’s, in the traditions that you’ve learned and the traditions that you’ve practiced, what do you see as the connection between healing and energy and healing and spirit?

[28:20] Wendy: [laughs] Hm, well, I’ve, this is what’s happened to me so many times in the past is that someone will ask me for help, or I’ve offered help and I’ve given somebody something, and then I walk away and I, I don’t know what the, what happened until maybe I see them, you know, it could be a couple months later, it could be a week later, and they, they say, “Wow, that thing you gave me worked really well.” So what’s the connection is, it’s for, sometimes it’s a leap of faith. That’s because they, maybe they look to me, they think because they think I have experience, and there’s a, a level of trust. And it’s, it’s not that it’s blind trust, but it’s the, it’s the connection that that person has with me. And, knowing who I am and perhaps my delivery, and this just happened to me again the other day. A a friend of mine was, had a, she was healing from some surgery and she had this scar that was very angry and it wasn’t healing well. And I said, I said, “Let me see.” [laughs] She showed it to me and I was like, “Here, try that.” And I completely forgot about it, but she had faith in what it was gonna do, and not, and that’s not, that’s not terribly scientific, but she, you know, she went to see doctors. And the doctors, there wasn’t anything that she was satisfied with what they were saying, but she knows me and I’m her friend, and she, she took a chance and, and it, and worked out. I think that there’s a lot of healing in plants because plants hold wisdom. And then as humans, we’re just like passing it along. Sometimes I feel like, you know, I’m just a conduit. It wasn’t me, it was the plant. So I think the wisdom is in the plants and it’s all there. You just, it just needs to be tapped into. And when I was early in my studies, what came to me was this sense that it was already there. All I was doing was reawakening it in myself, because we all, as humans, we have connections with plants, and some of us turn on that connection and some, it never happens, but it’s available to anybody. Does that answer the question?

[31:01] Nicole: It does, yes.

[31:03] Wendy: Cool.

[31:03] Nicole: So you mentioned that it, you, you used the word resurgence and, um, in, in this, in, you know, the interest in the practice of, of herbs and herbal healing. And you also mentioned yourself passing it down to family members and to your children and now to your grandchildren, people who care for your grandchildren. And so I think that you see it as something that is being preserved and passed down. Do you think, do you ever see any kinda danger in losing this knowledge? Have you seen it in the past? Where do you think, how do you think it’s changed from when you started studying until now?

[31:58] Wendy: I see it as ultra positive. It’s, like I said, it’s a lot more mainstream. I used to, like, I would go to the liquor store and buy alcohol and say, “I’m making extracts!” And people would say, “Well, I don’t know what you’re talking about.” And, and the way I treated my kids was considered odd in the early 90’s, starting in the early nineties until they were, you know, much older. And look, I see the resurgence in my kids interested. They, they were raised with it, and then you like, blow off your parents, and then you, and then they came back, which was really, a happiness for me. And when I was telling you that I could go and get herbs so easily for, on Amazon, if that isn’t the most mainstream thing, and when I talk to, if, if I have to see a doctor, like I had surgery on my knee, and, um, I let them know that I was gonna use arnica, and in the past they’d be like, “Whoa, I, you know, don’t wait. Can you just wait until after?” And there was so much, uh, not fear, but being so guided around it, you know, like perhaps having your guard up. And I see that as really softening, you know, I know that the medical community is still set in their ways, but I see a lot of cracks in the foundation that’s allowing for things to come in. And I hear people talk about things like, just off the cuff, how many people know about arnica now? How many people carry arnica? And that was like, so unusual 30 years ago. And echinacea, it’s just ubiquitous, you know, you can get that in the, the Rite Aid, you know [laughs], that’s what I mean about how mainstream it is. So I think it’s, I think it’s great. I think it’s, um, it’s become very mainstream. I think there’s, there’s a lot of people that still don’t know what they’re doing, but good for you for trying, you know, I’m happy.

[34:23] Nicole: I think that if my memories are correct, you’re the one who told me about and taught me about arnica back, uh…

[34:28] Wendy: Oh, really?

[34:30] Nicole: Back when you were, yeah. When you were here in New Jersey and involved with, Raíces yeah.

[34:36] Wendy: Do you know, the, the beautiful thing is now I can harvest arnica on my own because it, it has to be at at least 5,000 feet, and I go up to like 10,000 feet to gather it. And it’s, it’s a, around here, it’s very prevalent. It’s, it’s a great medicine. And that’s another thing that I gather in the wild every year and still make medicine with, and I’m constantly giving that away just my basics.

[35:03] Nicole: While you’re missing some of the New Jersey plants. There are other plants that you couldn’t harvest here in the wild that, or grow that you can, access where you are.

[35:13]  Wendy: Like what?

[35:14] Nicole: Like arnica.

[35:15] Wendy: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[35:17] Nicole: [laughs] Yeah.

[35:18]  Wendy: Like osha.

[35:19] Nicole: Osha…

[35:20] Wendy: That’s A big…

[35:21] Nicole: Right. Yeah. Well, great. Thank you for sharing so much with us. I, I will, uh, I have two, two more questions. The, the one is, why is it, do you think it’s so important to preserve this knowledge and these ancestral practices of working with plants to preserve and improve our health?

[35:51] Wendy: You know what, when all else fails and the truck stop running and the electric goes out, I know that I can take care of myself and I, I know that I, you know, I’ll have medicines to look after myself and my community, and it’s part of being, um, I don’t like, I don’t like to say self-sufficient, because I think that self-sufficiency means that you don’t interact with other people. But I’m self-efficient, and I depend on my community. And if I can help in the community with things like that, you know, through spreading wisdom, uh, it’s, it’s very important to keep stuff like this going because this is, it’s autonomy. It’s autonomy, and there’s so much autonomy being taken away from us every day. And we have to hold our power and, you know, wherever you can hold your power and, and do things for yourself, I, I think that’s important. Yeah. And there’s a book called The Immortality Key where some archeologists have gone back and found this herbal mixture in bowls that are thousands and thousands of years old. They happen to be psychoactive herbs that were brought together. But this stuff is just going on forever, and we’re still trying to figure out like what they were doing with those herbs and why those herbs? And, and those herbs are still being grown all over the world. And it’s like, it connects us to, to our ancient past. And it’s not just about what can we use, it’s about what our history is. So I, I think it’s very, it’s very valuable. It’s important. And there’s just numerous books, and so far these books haven’t been banned. But if they are, that’s the first thing I want.

[37:51] Nicole: [laughs] My very, very last question is, is there a particular plant that you are enjoying working with these days? Not necessarily a favorite plant or an all time, but like, something that you’re working with right now that just has been capturing your attention?

[38:09] Wendy: Well, um, hopefully I’ll remember when we get off this call. I’ll send you a picture of the poppies. I’ve been growing. I’m obsessed with poppies and these poppies are, I didn’t grow poppies when I was in New Jersey. These are magnificent. And they’re wild on my property now because I brought them in and let them have their way. And I, so I grow opium poppies and I grow California poppies, and they’re both medicine poppies. In addition to just giving me so much joy because they’re so freaking beautiful. They just, they blow me away. They’re so beautiful. So that’s what I’ve, I’ve had an obsession with. Yeah.

[38:57] Nicole: Great.

[38:58] Wendy: And, um, and, you know, my medicine herbs, I just like Nicole. I’m still a big gardener and I, I, my backyard is just my pleasure spot. It’s just an amazing place. And in fact, I’m on the garden tour next year, so I’m excited about that. And probably what you saw in New Jersey, I’ve tried to recreate as much as that as possible using a lot of permaculture practices and just some stuff that I’ve always done. And, um, lots of, lots of fruit trees and medicine and vegetables and fruits. So what’s my favorite? I can’t say. I do like those poppies though, and this year I’m gonna prick them and try and gather the latex and do something with ’em. Maybe just get really stoned. I don’t know.

[39:48] Nicole: [laughs]

[39:50] Wendy: I’ll slip into a coma. Oh, too much poppy for Wendy [laughs].

[39:59] Nicole: Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories for telling us and sharing a little bit more about your history and how you got into herbs and herbalism and herbal healing. I think it’s, it’s really important. It’s great that you mentioned the, the studies that you had in New Jersey who were really happy to hear more from, you know, add to this set of stories that were collecting from people who were born in and live in and work in New Jersey, and how they are connected to plants and healing. So thank you so much for sharing with us.

[40:34] Wendy: Mm-Hmm. It’s so thank you so much for having me. It’s so good to see you again. And I’m gonna send you pictures of poppies.